For the record Green Bay should have been assessed a 15 yard penalty on the third challenge by McCarthy.

Rule 15, Section 9 of the rule book states that "for initiating a challenge when all of a team’s timeouts have been exhausted or when all of its available challenges have been used: Loss of 15 yards."

Even Mike McCarthy acknowledges as much: On third challenge: "I made a mistake." Was supposed to get a 15-yard penalty.

Small wonder Green Bay leads the league in penalties. Sunday, while a much better day was not much better 12 penalies for 100 yards. Had they properly administered the penalty on MM that would have been 13 penalties for 115 yards

So much for "gettin' it fixed" or "cleanin' it up"

This was just an inexcusable mistake. How can you drill discipline into your team when the coach is making egregious mental miscues like that? When that happened, I was commenting in the game thread that I thought there was supposed to be a delay of game type penalty.

What's sad is, I laughed.

I mean, should this really come as a surprise to anyone, anymore?

There is no accountability on this squad and their most likely never will be under MM. It just pains me to say that, but it's true.

Was it huge win yesterday? You bet your ass it was. But, we have to play almost perfect football to win and overcome these penalties. Each and every week from here on out.

Makes me wonder about that outcome had we weren't playing the second most-penalized team in the league...

I wondered about that. It seemed like there should have been some reprocussions for making an illegal challenge. Even more embarrassing for the officials than for McCarthy. How did they not catch that? We'll take, I guess. We were in control at that point anyway, so it likely wouldn't have mattered.

Yeah, inexcusable on McCarthy's part, too.

Then again, there were penalties called that were borderline at best. The holding call on Nelson is the best example. Exactly how WR block on the edge on virtually every play. He had his hands on the defensive players chest, shouldn't matter if he's grabbing jersey or not, that's never called. That killed a drive.

I wonder if MM has soemone new upstairs responsible for replay. Just seems like he was really on top of things in years past, but this year has been pretty inconsistent. He still should have know he didn't have a replay available, but he's busy calling the offense, etc. WHoever he goes to for replay decisions really screwed up.

McCarthy should get together with McNabb to talk about the intricacies of the NFL rulebook

Huh?

there's a rule book?

Yes, Mike. Can I send you, your staff and players complimentary copies to read at your leisure?

How many penalties are called that shouldn't be, and why don't you make a thread for those?

Because then he wouldn't get a chance to get a shot in on McCarthy.

Criticizing MM is now out of the question?

Monkeysoul my brother, There are plenty of those threads.

I will point out that it is a famous past time of Vikings fans to whine about bad calls.

While I played and coached, I notice that the teams that whined and assumed the position of victims were usually teams that lost and it was never the position that winners assumed for more than possibly a moment - they then got back to playing and controlling their own destiny.

Anyone else remember Chris Webber calling timeout for Michigan in the NCAA Finals and getting assessed a technical because he had none left? I kept waiting for that penalty to hit, but it didn't.

That officiating crew should be disciplined. It's bad enough MM doesn't know how many he has left. It's even worse when the refs aren't keeping track, or following the rules when they realize he called too many. We'd be furious if the Cowboys had won and the situation was reversed.

Yes, I certainly remember Weber's blunder costing Michigan a national championship with theirr freshman fab 5

Of course we would be furious had the Cowpokes gotten away with such a snafu - we'd be calling it a Jones influenced conspiracy. Instead we were acting as if it was the reasonable thing to do I was telling those around me that the Packers needed to get lucky and get onto the next play before the refs realized their major mistake.

I thought their penalty only occurred if the team was out of timeouts . . . otherwise, a time out was assessed.

Can you provide a link to the actual rule, I could not find it on the official NFL web site.

Gotcha. So what's the point of this thread, again?

Rumor has it the refs did not call a 15 yarder on the Pack because they blew the whistle sooo muchhh calling penalties on the Pack, their lips fell off.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/story?id=4658671

There's an article that references it. McCarthy looked stupid on that play, unless he didn't actually officially challenge it, just asked if he could. I think they can ask questions like that without fear of a penalty.

Triplette's crew though, no surprise there were some 22 flags thrown. He loves that face time mugging for the camera. I betcha he was preening all week knowing he had two of the most penalized teams in the NFL coming onto his field.

I saw a game on MNF once and his crew were drowning the game out with yellow and finally Al Michaels got disgusted. Madden was all over it too, but he gets like that some time, but seeing Al go off on him was really surprising.

But justified, if we wanted to watch the zebras, we'd have gone to the zoo.

The Packers have developed a rep as an oft penalized team, so refs call it accordingly. Things like the illegal contact call on Harris in the first game and the illegal contact call on Hawk that cost him an int against the Bucs aren't called against the vast majority of team. But the Packers have a rep for illegal contact penalties, so the refs will watch more closely and won't give the Packers the benefit of the doubt.

The Jordy Nelson holding penalty is another example. The Packers over the last few years must have more holding penalties than any other team in the NFL and the refs know that. So they call more holding penalties because they know the Packers hold more. If Nelson was playing for the Steelers or Colts or Dolphins, teams that are known for getting few penalties called on them, I have no doubt that isn't a penalty. It's become just like baseball. A pitcher who is known to have good control will always get the borderline strikes. A pitcher who is known to have bad control will never get those calls.

No pasmith, the rule reads as I copied above... the penalty occurs in either circumstance as it reads OR not both. The rule is pretty straight forward and clear IMO. If I have time I will provide you with a link - right now I've got to run.

MM's use of the challenge flag is one of the more glaring examples, IMHO, of his stupidity. I swear, he thinks that the challenge flag is used to make bad plays go away and thus challenges even when there is no hope of overturning the result.

The NFL doesn't publish most of their rules online, at least at a place where most fans can get them. I do have a copy of last years rule book and looked it up and Bruce is exactly right.

I scanned in that page and circled the quote.



BTW, I know people are giving McCarthy a hard time with the rules on this as well as the officials for their calls, but, it is so much harder to be an official than you think. There are over 200 pages of rules and interpretations that you have to know inside and out, as well as use your best judgment on some, and you have to know them well enough to make a decision on them in less than a second when a play happens.

In fairness he does get advice from someone in the booth whose JOB it is to tell the coach to challenge or not. I am sure some of these are MM call but I would guess the vast majority come from the booth.

And who is advising MM to throw out the challenge flag in the first place? This isn't the first time MM has tried to challenge a play and almost everyone watching is scratching their heads at this notion...

Triplett is an idiot and should be out of a job.

Once a team is out of challenges some assitant should take the challenge flag away form the HC.

The rule is very clear but in the grand scheme of things I consider this pay back for the INT against MIN taken away from Woodson, the INT against Tampa taken away from Hawk, the BS unsportsmanlike conduct by Chillar against MIN, the ticky-tack illegal contact on Harris against the Bears, all the offensive holds never called on Kampman rushes, all the offense PAs that should have been called against Irvin 15 years ago... am I forgetting anything?

It's karma, just say thank you to the universe and get on with life.

My concern is not so much who's decision it is, but when they are being thrown. Sunday is a prime example. MM challenges the Jordy Nelson completion on the one. If he doesnt challenge it whats so bad? We have first and goal on the one. And the one in question in the OP was a 6 yard completion in the 3rd quarter? I would like to see them used in more critical situations.

Yeah, if you're out of challenges why does he still have the flag in his pocket? Get rid of it. A coach has enough to keep track of in a game without having to remember if he's used his challenges or not. Not excusing MM's idiocy, but you can help him out by taking away the flag.

what does it say about wade phillips that he and his staff didn't ask that the penalty be enforced. Could it be they didn't know the rules as well?

Actually Wade did try to scream at the officials as they whistled play to continue, but once the next play is run they cannot go back and enforce the penalty.

He was steaming.

BTW MM admits he knew he blew it and the penalty for the infraction. He has said that he was aware that he was dodging a bullet when the penalty was not called.

4? no wonder they lost!

The Fab Five (l-r): Ray Jackson, Chris Webber, Juwan Howard, Jalen Rose, Jimmy King in 1992.


Or did you just lose count.....

I think that's a valid point for the ocassional mistake but MM is making erroneous challenges in just about every game, so it goes back to him. Either he's the source of the screw-up or he's not correcting the source of the screw-up which puts it back on him.

My BIG ASS fingers often strike the neighboring key

Thanks, I should proof a little better for posting.

I can remember the game very well - I was pulling for Michigan both with my heart and my wallet. Weber's blunder was understandable for a freshman under the big time National spotlight in a championship game - but it is one of those tags that will never go away.

Head Coaches in their 4 season as HC on the other hand...

I'm just trying to understand the vibe of this thread......so you WANTED the Pack to be assessed another large penalty? I'm not arguing the legitimacy of your claim, but wishing for bad things to happen isn't my thing. I'm not saying that the Pack couldn't be a more disciplined team, but we've had plenty of questionable calls against us this year, so to have one slip past the goalie is acceptable in my book. I know many of us are against McCarthy, but I just can't get behind wishing the team misfortune just to make the coach look bad. For the record, I usually enjoy your comments Bruce. I just can't get behind this one.
By the way, Go Blue!

Evidently nobody here knows whose job it is to advise MM on challenges...

I was watching the game with a buddy who is a cowgirls fan, and after a certain bad play by the Pack, they showed MM with that blank confused look. I said something to my buddy about it and he said Wade Phillips is even worse. He said that headset Wade is wearing isnt even hooked up abd that its just one of those toy headsets that plays farm animal sounds. Just made me realize were not the only ones who seriously question our HC.

Hell NO, I did not want another penalty assessed which is why I wrote:



There is no wishing of misfortune here at all. Rather, a discussion of the rule and the undisciplined nature of this team when it comes to penalties related to mental errors.

Frankly, I can live with penalties of aggression, but not one where players and coaches are not aware of things that they should easily be able to clean up by keeping their heads in the game - examples: Jolly's Head-Butt, Clifton's (and others) false starts and not lining up in a legal formation, too many guys on the field, breaking the huddle with 12 players, multiple players in motion without resetting... These are all penalties of sloppiness.

McCarthy was sloppy and did not keep his head in the game. I think it would be good leadership (as the man who is supposed to instill disciplined aggression) to fine himself and let players know that he would be following suit with them when they committed sloppy penalties and mental mistakes this late in the season.

I know that it USED to be Kurt Schottenheimer. Who it is now, I haven't a clue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWPQoFwVkrk

That's cool, I didn't see your second comment posted. The initial topic was where I lost you.