I Believe that football is about accountability and performance...

No one should be given free passes at any level of a football team...

Having said that, it is silly to be speculating about the new regime in administration or in the coaching staff at the mid-point of a season.

The hiring of Football operations staff , Management and Coachs are not determined by fan polls...

I think the performance of this team and the coaching staff has to this point been UNACCEPTABLE, but midseason sell-outs and house cleanings never produce much, and certainly do not reflect solid management at any level.

People should be put on notice, they should be working with an attitude of urgency -- from the GM's office, all the way down to the last guy on the roster. But this is the real World, not Madden or fantasy football. Teams are built with planning and vision. Thus there is a time for evaluation (ongoing) and another for employement decisions - they will begin the day after this season ends, not likely a moment before.

You're right on about this Bruce. My hope is that all members here can focus on what's at hand and keep discussing the upcoming games, player development, scheme changes etc. and not focus so much on the 'what ifs' of coaching. I know it's tempting and intriguing to think of the possibilities but it sometimes takes on the feeling of a soap opera. Nothing wrong with discussing the job that Murph, TT or coaches are doing but I'm selfish in that I hope the great members of this site focustheir evaluations on what I listed above. There's 8 games left in regular season and a lot can happen.

As you said, this is the REAL world. Therefore, we're naive if we believe decisions about GM, HC, etc. aren't already being discussed. Would anything be done during the season? Never say never. WhatIF they lose the next 5 games, and there is all sorts of discontent in the locker room? I could see them pulling thr trigger early and have Capers take on the job as interim coach.

But even if they make a move after the season, they're talking about it now. Too much work to be done after the season to wait until then to start discussing it. So I don't think it's silly to dicsuss any changes. this is a Packers message board, why wouldn't we discuss it here?

Amen. I couldn't agree more.

VOR that is why I said evaluation is ongoing with no free passes.

However, wild speculation belongs in the On the Streets Forum, not in Green Bay Packers News TalkIMO

As for pulling the trigger early - the action of desperate football teams rarely if ever results in good outcomes. You gain nothing by hurrying the process by a few weeks IMO

Management is already starting to look too much like the Keystone Cops, acting desperate will result in disaster and only make matters worse.

I've been fired myself before, (though not because of performance) so I've always had trouble with really calling for anyone to lose their livelihood. Obviously, Thompson and McCarthy have been well compensated for their time here, but regardless, the feeling of getting canned, sucks.

That all said, Bruce is right about performance and accountability. And there needs to be, IMO, more of it in Green Bay. The more I think about it, the more I believe that even if the team finishes 8-8, or 6-10 again, that both McCarthy and Thompson will, "stay the course" with what they've been doing.

That's the part I don't agree with. The landscape of business changes all the time. And people have to be willing to adapt. For Thompson and McCarthy, their business, should be about one thing -- winning. But I'm not so sure they're willing to alter anything to get there.

I guess we'll see eventually whether or not that's the right strategy.

Agree 100 % that it would be counterproductive at best to fire TT and/or MM at midseason. But if I'm Murphy, I'd already be putting together a list for the day after the season ends.

I don't know if I agree that they've been stubbornly staying the course. MM has changed almost the entire defensive coaching staff, even changing schemes to the 3-4. He's benched players that haven't produced when he's been able to (well, maybe not always). The offensive line has been changing nearly every week due to injury or bad performance. Special teams coaching was changed as well.

He's throwing stuff against the wall, but having a hard time making any of it stick. But he does have to produce results to keep his job, no question.

TT for his part made a bold move in the draft to acquire Matthews. He didn't land any big free agents, and I'm not sure how much effort went into trying. Frankly, I don't think there was much out there. He might be a little more change resistent than MM.


But I agree with Bruce and others that midseason changes won't accomplish anything. In baseball you sometimes see a team get a short term boost from an in-season managerial change, but obviously football is a whole lot different.

What is the harm of pulling the trigger a few weeks early? If this team is lost- record-wise, emotionally, etc. then what difference would it make who the HC is for the lst few games? If anything, it could be a positive. A statement that's shouted loud and clear to everyone in the organization that this won't be tolerated now or in the future. It would also give Capers a few games as HC, and achance to see how the team performs under him.

I've seen "desperate" moves pay off all the time. Picking up Rison late in the year was a desperate move. The Patriots one year simply quit trying to run the ball. They just couldn't run early in the year, and they went to throwing the ball 90% of the time...and won a SB. Tampa was desperate and said "what the heck, let's give Freman a chance" and they finally won.

To me, changes are an either/or. It's the right move or not. If someone else perceives it as desperate, reactionary, etc. doesn't really matter. If it works, it was right. If it doesn't work, it ws the wrong move.

We could list the reasons, but I think the most compelling argument is simply looking at the teams that do this sort of thing. They're perennial losers, all of them.

Go ahead, look it up.

I would argue the perennial losers don't do it soon enough, and that's the problem. Millen in Detroit being the biggest example. If they would have removed him mid-season years ago the Lions may be a contender by now for all we know. Somehow I feel I've been placed on the side that wants to dump MM and/or TT mid-year. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that. I'm just pointing out it isn't necessarily a bad move. Very few things are always right or always wrong, every situation is different.

I would counter that it is a bad move, since everyone who's done so recently has gone on to suck for years to come.

I suspect this is probably because firing the HC mid-season is something that organizations with bad management do, and it makes it hard to get top talent (who wants to be canned at the first bump in the road?). If this is the reason or not, however, it's hard to argue with precedent.

It's always possible that the Pack could prove an exception to this rule. It's also possible that I could jump off my office building when quitting time rolls around and not get seriously hurt, but I'll still take the stairs down to my car. Slower, but I like my chances better.

I remember when coaches actually made players EARN their job...

I remember when coaches were influential and the media did not control them .I remember when they didnt give a crap what the media thought. Today we trust the media NOT the coaches that is a paradime switch That IMO sucks. The media has become the intisgator with no solution. The coaches have become the push overs tryng to say the political correct thing.

We as fans have been sucked in !!!

Does it ever work though? That's an honest question, not a challenge. Is there a 4-4 team or one with a similar record which replaced their head coach and/or GM mid-season that amounted to anything? I personally don't see the need to panic, we're 4-4, not 2-6--even if we lose to the 'Boys we're not done. This was a 6-10 team a year ago, being 4-4 at this juncture is something of an improvement. TT's job is mostly done for the season, it wouldn't gain us much to replace him--what would his successor do at this point to significantly improve the team? Sign Larry Johnson?

I guess I'm not in panic mode, and feel that mid-season moves of this nature are just pathetic and indicative of a losing organization. Replacing Millen is something the Lion's should have done post-season a number of years, but the reason they kept losing wasn't because they didn't do it mid-season. That's just scapegoating in my opinion, and by mid-season you're kinda wedded to the coach who brung you and replacing the GM seems utterly pointless--95% or more of his job has already been done.


I wouldn't mind some asking a few pointed questions regarding all our available cap dollars after the season though. Even Leroy Butler is kinda wondering why we seem to have deficiencies that weren't addressed but plenty of money in the bank. Here it just rots, it's not like anyone makes profit off it, everyone--especially the fans who own the team--just lose by being forced to watch an inferior incarnation of what might-have-been.

Interesting opinion. Why then did so many fans cheer when there was a housecleaning by the Packers after the 6-12 season? Including you and me?

Replace the present regime in mid-season? Good grief, no way. Cut ties with several coaches, and give TT a year to wade into FA or move to another site- yes. Take a long, hard look at the players, and decide who can improve, who have plateaued, and who is falling? Definitely. So, I do largely agree with you, but believe your original statement was a bit inconsistent.

I am not sure what you are referring to? The example you allude to was a post season change, not one at mid-season.

I have never cheered a housecleaning in Green Bay, and certainly did not cheer the firing of Mike Sherman. I came to believe that the situation between Ted Thompson and Mike Sherman was flawed and destine to failure but I did not cheer his firing, nor did I blame him for the failures of an injury riddled and undermanned squad at that was part of the GM change at both Safety and Guard. I thought for everyone's sake it was time for a change, but I advocated thanking him for his service and honoring his success as he departed in wishing him well.

I thought Ron Wolf made a good choice in making a change for the same reason when he let Infante go at the end of a season - though I thought Lindy was a good man, I did not see him working well with Wolf, nor did I see him leading us to the promised land.

Hell, I was even sad to see Bart Starr go by the time he was finally dismissed - I thought he had finally caught on to what it was going to take as a coach to win, but it came too late.

I was happy with the firing of Dan Devine, who I thought gutted the franchise. I also was relieved to see Forrest Gregg go, as he clearly was unable to 'get it done' in Green Bay, but I still loved and admired him as a player and give him his due as a coach for his better work in Cincinnati.

The only time a coaching staff should be fired mid-season is if they lose control of their football team or commit some serious malfeasance.

I understand the unhappiness and the loss of faith that is currently taking place, but I continue to maintain that calling for heads at 4-4 is premature and a waste of time. If you find that inconsistent I am not sure I know what to say other than ricky this seems like one of those times you are seeking to disagree when we essentially agree with each other.

Well said Bruce.

I hope Murphy has the fortitude to let TT and MM both go at the end of the season. I don't dislike either as people, but at high levels you much be held accountable for success, not effort.

TT continues to be simply a good evaluator (overall) of college talent, but cannot seem to grasp some of the other aspects of being a good GM. I think he consistently under-values offensive linemen's contributions to the team and so he does not put enough effort into acquiring top-shelf talent to protect his QBs and make holes for his RBs.

MM may someday be a good HC, but he has not seasoned enough yet and I think he has lost the team. Many of the mistakes that are being made are those that come from poor coaching. The penalties and the sacks are as much a matter of scheme as anything else.

I've seen some complaints about the Special Teams coach, but frankly I don't know if we know enough to blame him. ST is often ignored too much by the HC and so the ST coach has little or no time to work with his units to ensure the can be successful. Again, I don't know that this is the case, but without that information, I would not indict the ST coach.

I agree that a mid-season move is pointless either way, but without a dramatic turnaround, I think those two should be done in GB. Murphy should be building a list and 'touching base' with any potential candidates for either job.

as one must interview potential head coaches,
the word would get out that mm is done, forfeiting the season.

likely all one would get is an interim which is a waste of time.

12-4 should make the playoffs. what do we need, just 8 more wins?

Bruce, please re-read my post. I agreed with you that a mid-season change would not be a good idea. I disagreed with you on the point of major coaching changes being made at the end of a season- like the Packers did last year. You and I and others applauded that idea, and some on here lauded that idea. What I was disagreeing with was that you seemed to be saying that a total housecleaning of a staff was a bad idea- even though the Packers (MM) did that last year. If I misunderstood your post, fine. But to put the spin on my post that I am for a mid-season change, when I specifically rejected that idea, is incorrect.

update -
7 more wins!!!

go pack!!