WAIT, stop before you reply to the topic description.

Does everyone really believe what they're saying about our GM and HC? There are some awful things being said.

Has no one tried so hard at something and simply not succeeded? Were you deserving of the things that are now being said about these guys?

I am not happy with our team. I think that if we don't win 6 of our next 8, we should look in a different direction this offseason. But I don't think MM would throw anyone under the bus. And I don't think TT, the guy who works Bum Phillips' ranch every year, would scapegoat anyone. I don't think they're bumbling idiots.

Do you?

I never said they were bumbling...

Ok I won't make fun at MM's "pad level" statements

I guess I haven't seen too much stuff that would fall into the "awful" category, except for a couple dozen posts between about 3:45 PM and 4:30 PM yesterday. Once people got past the "kick the dog and throw a brick through the TV" stage, I thought most of the comments were at least civilized. But, yeah, the criticism has gotten pretty intense, and when that happens it sometimes crosses the line into personal. I know on some other boards, it's miles beyond that line. This board is pretty tame, actually.

My personal feeling about the two of them is that McCarthy is probably a really decent guy who's just completely out of his depth and doesn't have the first clue what to do about it; and TT is a good, highly principled man who's made some serious mistakes in his approach but will hopefully recognize them and learn from them after he fires McCarthy.

I'm quite frustrated with both of them (especially McCarthy), but have nothing personal against either of them. I'm angry (sometimes quite angry) at the situation we're dealing with, but not really at the two men who've brought it about. I want McCarthy gone no later than January 5th, and maybe a lot sooner if the team continues to come apart over the next few weeks, but not because I hate the guy - simply because if the fabric of the team continues to unravel, replacing McCarthy with an interim coach may be the only thing TT can do to restore morale and keep the team from coming apart at the seams. I think these players have already quit on their coach, and if things keep getting worse the next step for some of them will be to quit on their teammates and their team. And I think (or at least, hope) that Ted's smart enough to understand how difficult that kind of damage can be to repair, and how long it can take.

Other than that, I have no feelings one way or the other about either of them, other than to sincerely wish McCarthy the best of luck in his new position. I don't really need to have any other opinion on either of them, including what kind of human beings they are, because as a fan it's none of my business.

Yes

MonkeySoul, I am not sure if you are asking a rhetorical question or not, but I can assure you that fans, stockholders, and stakeholders (pretty much one and the same) are, by and large, deeply upset at what has occurred. Unlike other teams in the NFL, the aforementioned own the very team they are so passionate about. This isn't Detroit, and William Clay Ford does not hold the purse-strings. Green Bay has been down this path before, and it is obvious the fans don't want to tolerate a trough of the Devine/Starr/Infante days.

Ted Thompson took a big gamble and lost. In the process he divided the Green Bay fandom and figuratively urinated on its very foundation through his treatment of Favre. Keeping his cards close to his chest, and his other idosyncratic ways do nothing for PR. He may be a Bum Phillips disciple and spend time on his ranch, but that means very little.

Mike McCarthy has shown uninspired football coaching abilities the past few weeks. The team is devoid of confidence, Rodgers has regressed and appears to be playing scared. They lost to an 0-7 team. Inexcusable. The fans generously gave him this season to fix it, and there isn't an infinite window to fix things in the NFL. He has so far squandered the opportunity, and the play vs the Bucs on Sunday was reminiscent of the Packers vs Giants in December 1986--that poor.

So, excuse the fans if they are making snide remarks. They have patiently waited (in relative terms) for the duo of Ted and Mike to restore glory. If anyone has been thrown under the bus, it is the fans--who wanted so much to believe that this was the year.

Yes.

Just read the transcript of McCarthy's pree conference. According to him special teams, offensive line coaching is fine. Everthing is fine.

Im watchinh the steelers, broncos game. A couple motivated teams playing hard and tough aganist each other. Broncos coach fired up, players fired up. Hard hitting game. Very different then watching the packers.

Idiots no, But what they are getting goes with the territory. The over the top stuff is uncalled for but voicing legit issues...go for it......They are paid very well to do a job that only 32 men at their positions have. General Manager and Coach of a National Football League team. This business is about results and to this point they are both failing. Are they good people, I am sure they are. Packer Nation (I really do not like that title but...) is much more tolerant than other cities. Can you imagine the press, the fans in NY, CHI, Philadelphia after that performance yesterday?

This is the type of stuff that blows my mind. What are you talking about? How the hell could TT 'figuratively urinated on its very foundation'?

No, they just play them on TV...

With good aim? He got what he wanted. He built this squad all by himself. Penny by Penny.

Try to remember that this place acts as a bit of an echo chamber, too -- like a lot of topic-specific internet sites, things get driven way out of proportion by a combination of repetition and mutual reinforcement.

That, plus there's a certain segment of people who blame TT for Favre's departure in a way that goes completely beyond any reason and into deep emotional angst.

To be put as simply as possible...


YES

Whoa, I think you used one too many pennies there.

As for the topic, MM should be getting his things in order and preparing for the proverbial ax. TT should be taking notes.

People get fired from jobs everyday, most with nothing more then crappy unemloyment checks. These two if let go will receive a nice fat exit package worth millions, no I don't feel the least bit sorry for them.

Exactly. What I was about to say. These guys have some of the greatest jobs in the world. Fortune and fame. There is always a downside to fame. MM is young enough to coach somewhere for many years and make many millions of dollars.

So no, I don't feel sorry for these guys that they're being criticized. It goes with the territory, and they would be the first ones to admit it. They may even be talented at what they do, it just hasn't worked here.

Yes, I do.

Matter of fact these two BI's have no business being anywhere near the NFL.
They are both lucky as hell to have been associated with the Green Bay Packers, but their dream is coming to an end. McCarthy can go back to working at Jiffy Lube, and Thompson can fufill his dream and get into the fashion world, because once Green Bay cans their collective asses, no other team will be stupid enough to hire them.

Bitter? No, I am not bitter.

There are just as many TT fanatics on this site as well; most of them have just been pretty quiet the last couple of weeks, with the exception of a few (which I can at least respect the fact that they still show up and give their opinion as unpopular as it is at the moment). Some have even changed their stance after seeing the proof on the field.

This summer you would have thought this was TT's official website they way so many carried on about how great he is. How the times have changed after only a couple of months.

I agree these guys obviously have talent you normally don't get to where they are without it. I just don't think MM is HC material maybe some day but not yet, and I don't think TT will ever have what it takes to be a successful GM in the NFL. That doesn’t make them untalented or bad people.

Right, and to be clear I didn't mean MM would get a job as HC in the NFL again. I doubt it, but who knows. He WILL get a job as an assistant coach in the NFL, or HC or Coordinator for a college team. But he will coach somewhere and make at least six figures if the Packers let him go.

My career, somewhat like the NFL, is a performance-based business. If you don't perform, you don't work. Lucky for me, I'm damn good at what I do. If I wasn't, I'd be in the same situation these guys are in now -- with people talking about replacing me. I haven't seen anyone call them, "bumbling idiots" as you say, but the proof is in the pudding -- they're not performing. I, like all of us, are hoping that turns around. But I'm not holding my breath.

you got that right.

This summer it was impossible to say anything negative about the Packers at all without getting flamed. Maybe it's the economy, but folks weren't in a mood to entertain the possibility of failure. Preseason is always a bit like that, but this season it felt like Myanmar. There were threads guaranteeing that the Pack would win the superbowl, prophesying "between 12 and 14 wins", and assuming the team would be 7-1 at miseason. Capers was a genius; the 3-4 kicked ass; Raji and Matthews were the final pieces of the puzzle; Kampman was so good he could play safety at a pro bowl level, if required. Rodgers only had to put on his jersey to win MVP; Bigby was gonna hit harder than ever; Clifton had never felt healthier; Barbre was so nasty he'd devour opposing ends. Preseason was meaningful.

And if you thought differently, you had to be a Vikings fan.

Now it's just as insane, but from the opposite perspective. Success in 2007 is attributed to Favre and Favre alone. Thompson has drafted a bunch of muppets; the linemen and linebackers are all useless; the defense couldn't keep Indiana out of the end zone in the fourth quarter; and the special teams are all Slocum's fault, eight games into his tenure. Fans are yearning for Mike Wahle, the Lombardi sweep, and probably Cal Hubbard for all I know.

Yet the team is 4-4, just a game out of the playoffs. It squashed three crappy teams, and killed itself against another. It is second in the league in turnover differential, seventh in offensive yards, and fourth in defense. Capers has turned around the run defense, allowing 3.5 yards a run, more than a yard better than last year and the franchise best since 1996. Finley, Matthews and Sitton are having breakout years, while Lang, Jones and Havner are playing well and gaining valuable experience. The transition to the 3-4 is bumpy, as everyone ought to have expected, but the defensive line is already playing light years better than in 2008.

This always felt like it was going to be a rebuilding year: a new defense, holes in the offensive line, questionable depth, a sophomore QB (cf Favre in 1993). The performance has been disappointing by any standard, but made worse by raised expectations which were, in my opinion, based on nothing but hype and wishful thinking. The allegory with the economy really does hold.

The key now is not to lose the team. If next year is to be a success, an 8-8 record is essential. This team needs to hang together, and learn how to win. Our job, as fans, is to help them. Recriminations should be saved until January.

Had that been the Packers, this board would have griped about an 18-point home loss and how we were simply outclassed by superior talent despite our "gamey" effort. Someone would have surely pointed out our only touchdown was a fluke on defense and that we really never had a scoring opportunity on offense after the opening drive. Someone else would have quoted that and commented it's probably because Pittsburgh made adjustments and we didn't--citing quotes like this from the head coach: "We didn't stop anybody once they started going no-huddle." Someone would state how important it is to win at Washington this week because it might be our best shot at a win all month. We'd be reminded how we got lucky at Cincinnati and the last couple weeks are beginning to show our true colors--getting dominated by elite AFC talent. Someone would probably even wonder how we might be doing had we not traded our former QB. Someone would mention the rushed, high throws from our current QB that got picked and wonder if he wouldn't be better off just taking a sack once in a while. Someone would mention our coach rode Belichick's coattails to this gig and clearly isn't ready for primetime. Predictions of doom-and-gloom would surface in a season that started with such promise. Most will think we'll now miss the playoffs but won't give us much chance to win even if we sneak in and we'd reminisce about the glory years with our HOF QB and state how we all hope to see those days again in our lifetime.

I think Mike McCarthey is a below average head coach. I didn't feel that way coming into the season, but recent events have changed my mind on this. In 2007 we were 13-3. In 2008 we were 6-10. One of those seasons was likely a bit of a fluke. In the preseason I thought they were closer to the 13-3 team. Not it appears it's closer to the 6-10 version.

Call it waffling or whatever, but when your faced with evidence that doesn't support your earlier beliefs, you have to acknowledge it and consider that you were wrong. I now believe I was wrong.

For Thompson...well I'm still on the fence on that one, but my inclination is that he's not doing a very good job either. The offensive line problems are almost certainly his fault. Some say this team is stacked with talent. I'm not so sure. And it appears he hired the wrong head coach.


The only thing I can't stand is people who have to make this all about Favre. Enough of that. He's at least as responsible for his own departure from the Packers as they are, and it now appears based on the Brandt articles that Favre probably never wanted to play for the Packers in 2008 when he returned. So stop this whole thing about them treating him like crap.

Are MM and TT incompetent? Probably. Are they horrible people? I don't think so.

I don't know if you would consider me a TT fanatic - I don't think I am but I do like his philosophy on how to build a team. I think building through the draft is the right way to go and IMO he has done an OK job at drafting (not great but OK). I think he was right on Favre and I give him a lot of credit for making the difficult decision instead of the popular one. I wish he were a little more active in Free Agency (some experienced security blankets would be helpful) but in general I am on board with not using it that much.

I never bought the argument that Thompson had a huge mess to clean up, IMO they were a good team under Sherman but they were starting to decline. I did give him a pass on 2005 because of the injuries and not having his own coach in place. I didn't know what to make about 2008 because of a new QB and because of the major distraction from moving on with-out Favre, I with held making any judgements about that season.

Up until this year, I though he was right about McCarthy. I am a little concerned that he may be loosing his team and that can't happen. I am also concerned that while I like his approach, he may just not be good enough at it to win big. I know nothing about him as a person (I have never met him nor do I know anyone who knows him) but from what I have read he does work very hard at his job.

For me it comes down to winning and at this point there hasn't been enough of it. If somehow this year can be salvaged, which I still will root for, then I am all for him staying. If not then I think both Thompson & McCarthy go. I would be happy understanding it is for the best interest of the Packers but I would find no joy in seeing someone fail.

I don't understand the personal animosity towards these guys, just like I didn't understand it towards Sherman. To make it to the level they are at is an amazing accomplishment and while they may fail with the Packers it won't be because of a lack of effort or gross incompetence.

Before the season is supposed to be the time for optimism. Undefeated and all that.

There are folks here, I don't understand why they watch the game at all -- it clearly brings them no joy to do so.

Is this a joke post?

Apparently you have no understanding of a thing called "passion". Some Packer fans have been known to display it on occasion, especially when their team sucks!!

Call me a TT supporter, not a fanatic. I mainly support him because he is the GM of the Packers and feel that he has done some positive things in his tenure. Not everything great, but more bad than good IMO. As many have said before, it is a bottom line business which will be the ultimate judge of how well TT and MM have performed. As far as the preseason enthusiasm, what better time to support your team than when the slate is clean and anything is possible. The times have changed because there is now more information to start forming conclusions about the norm for this team. The Packers are tending more towards 6-10, not 13-3 and they have only 8 games left to stem the tide. The reason I personally have been more quiet lately is because I really take no joy in reading about calls for people to be fired or reading how satisfied people are about being "correct" in having predicted the demise of the Packers as led by TT and MM. Like most people I am not pleased with the teams performance but would think we should wait until the end of the season to fully evaluate. The early returns aren't good, but Philadelphia rebounded from losing to Oakland, so there is still some hope. Each week is a new week and a victory over the Cowboys would go a long ways towards helping the team and fan base.

Well, just to put it out there, I am first and foremost a Packer fan. I hope the Packers run the table and are the hottest team in the NFL heading into the playoffs by the end of the year. Just because I don't see them making the playoffs based on it's current state and schedule doesn't mean I don't WANT them to. Just because I don't see myself winning the lottery anytime soon doesn't mean I wouldn't be ecstatic if I did, I just don't think it's going to happen. I want the Packers to win every single game, always, no matter who is in charge. I just hold a strong opinion that the current GM won't take us far in the future and he has run his course. By no means does that indicate I WANT him to fail.

If they can turn this ship around and salvage this season and make a respectable run into the playoffs, I'll be happy to come here and proclaim how wrong I was about TT and/or MM and express that they should be given another chance. I just don't think they can do it with all the problems and the personnel, but I will be cheering for them every step of the way.

(I don't count struggling to get to 8-8 then backing into the playoffs because other teams in the NFC finished weak as a respectable run to the playoffs, just for the record.)

I think that's how a lot of people feel, Phil. But somehow that gets twisted into "we just hope they lose so we have something to complain about." Which is just ridiculous. Like you, I don't care who is coach or GM if they win football games. I have always been able to seperate football from personal feelings.

(By the way, you don't have to worry about backing into the playoffs at 8-8 this year, it's going to take 10-6)

I mostly agree with you. I did not like McCarthy's play calling last year and this year is more of the same; too predictable and does not make the most of talent and fails to hide the holes. A very good HC and OC does these things. I am also disappointed in DC Capers, who teased us with an agressive D only to do none of it in the real season. As to Thompson, I am changing my opinion of him. I do think he has brought sufficient players to GB, even though he has not used FA a lot in the last few years. He is responsible for the entire organization including HC and bringing in players. McCarthy has shown that he is too scared to allow others' input and make a solid game plan for each and every game. If a team changes their game plan, he does not seem to be able to adjust. Adjustments are key to winning in the NFL.

If GB continues the downward spiral, then the coaching staff must be severely redone. Thompson will probably get one more pass, if he is willing to fire the HC. If not, throw them all out. This team has players and is good enough right now to win most of the games they play. Quit dropping Kampman into coverage, he is our top rusher. He should be coming every passing play from any spot on the field (right or left side, heck even in the middle; on the LOS or LB position). He is the pass rushing LB. As to the OL, more chips, more quick slants, hitches, screens (RB, TE & WR), power running to allow the OL run over the other D.

Very well explained....amen!

Oh and to answer a question after this post- Maybe urinated wasn't the politically correct term; but all of the fans were united before Favre-Gate. It was handled wrong by everyone and became the Titletown's version of an in house Civil War or if you prefer; split the family up and this needed not be. 2 years later and Fans are still talking about it and are split over that. Now one way to have healed this split would have been to "KICK the VIKE'S Arse!!!" but instead had ours handed to us twice and this is unacceptable; especially when the Board; Harland and others were against parting with Favre; but TT had total control for the greater of the team and decided we were better off. Geez; I got off topic sorry. I do Like Rodgers a lot and don't have much bad to say on him. But Dog Gone IT; losing to the Vikes was just wrong twice. And then to the win-less Bucs? Who'll beat us next; the Lions on Turkey Day?????

Stockholder is just a PC term for cash donor. They are not owners. What you get for a $1,000 is a nice piece of paper to put in a frame to hang in your basement bar. In the 20's they passed a hat to pay the teams expenses. That didn't give anyone power in the organization then and it doesn't now. "Stocks" have value.

You realize that you're killing the self-importance of half the state's population of drunk-guys-who-corner-you-in-a-bar-and-chew-your-ear-off-for-a-freaking-hour-about-their-repetitive,-ill-informed-and-boring-opinions-on-the-Packers with that point.

I also watched in amazement at the pressure and blitz packages that Pitt dials up on every play, and wondered, what is Capers employing that remotely resembles the mayhem that Pitt brings? Not even close. I don't get it. Pitts 3 down lineman are below average last night (other than Hampton). LB are good, with Farrior and harrison92 way above average, but the other two basically are just bodies. CB are below what GB plays with each week. Which brings me to the safety spot, where Pitt is light years ahead of what we have. So is that the differnce? Safety and Harrison? Every play is mayhem with them. They complete destroy the other team.