I've generally been a positive fan who supports management to the nth degree but I'm completely off the MM and TT train.

Are there still posters who are still okay with TT and/or MM keeping their current positions beyond 2009?

If so, please state your opinion and case for keeping one or both

I'm asking other posters to not respond - this thread is not for debate - just like to hear reasons why they should be kept - thanks

If they were somehow able to make the play-offs this season, I would be in favor of them keeping their jobs. I know that's a huge IF.

I feel Thompson should be kept a minimum of one more year, if not two. I know some feel that he's built a poor team, but I'm not convinced of that.

You can point to the o-line, but are we certain it's because Thompson has drafted bad players? Maybe they're capable players, but have been very poorly coached.

However, I'm more than happy to see a new head coach at this point. McCarthy is incapable and incompetent.

I was a MM supporter up until yesterday, but it has become clear he can not motivate this team any longer. I see no discipline and little chance if it improving.

I actually still like TT, because when I look at the talent level of the team I do not think it is all that bad. I think he takes a long term view of things and that is rarity in the NFL. Unlike MM I think TT learns from his mistakes. Further it seems he has the respect of most his peers.

MM is very rapidly losing me. However, I feel most of this teams woes are from more specific coaching deficiencies. In another thread I stated that there are very few position groups that have shown any improvement in his tenure, and several that appear to me to be regressing. I would think his analysis of his assistants would be far more advanced than mine but, what if... like many of us, after a 13-3 season, he thought that the few apparent problems couldn't be blamed on inexperience. That after a 6-10 season, the running game and receivers decline couldn't be blamed on a poor OL which was the result of a season of injuries and shuffling what talent was left. Like many fans, he saw what we saw in an unimaginative DC and staff, and a poorly performing ST unit, and cleaned house. The transition, mostly, hasn't been too painful, but there are issues of talent matching scheme to be argued there. He made the necessary correction, but looks to me like he failed miserably with his selection of Slocum. The '09 albatross is the OL. Campen has had these guys long enough, and not only have they not improved, they look worse than they did when they were injured, out of position, and inexperienced. Now, an NFL head coach should be able to recognize when his assistants aren't getting the job done, but what if he was fooled or distracted by extenuating circumstances. For this reason alone I can accept giving him another chance on the condition that he cleans house on ST and the offensive staff, with the exception of McAdoo. If he doesn't, I can his ass. If he get's a OC that's capable of doing more than whetever it is that Philbin does, just maybe he can focus on things like discipline and motivation, and the team might have a chance.

If the coach doesn't flush his turds, he's gone. If he does, he gets another chance for his new staff.

I guess, if I were TT I would meet with the players individually and get a feel for what kind of respect is there for the coaches and if they felt it was possible for the team to go anywhere with MM. To me it doesn't appear that there could be much respect for the guy based on the amount of discipline, but maybe that's something he has delegated to his assistants.

If I were Murphy, I'd tell TT "this is your last chance with the guy you brought in. If he fails, you fail. So you'd better be sure this is the guy you want to go forward with". As far as his talent acquistion goes, I think he does ok drafting but the coaches are a huge failure developing players. I think the OL he's drafted would be light years ahead of where they are with a decent OL coach. I think he's done just ok on the FA market also. He got Woodson, Chillar and Pickett, He didn't overpay and they didn't get underpayed. Poppinga is making more money than he should be, but if that's the worst he does, he's doing pretty well. Most teams are rewarding their own, or Daniel Snyder is overrewarding them. Hell, even Jerry Jones will only put up with so much crap anymore before he cuts ties.

Bottom line is people need to be accountable. If HC doesn't hold players and assistants accountable, GM holds him accountable. If that doesn't happen pres. holds GM accountable.

Too early to say. Thompson is a well-respected draft specialist who was applauded by 90% of the people on these boards for his 2009 draft. But he has to be persuaded that a gaping hole such as the Packers had at both tackle positions last offseason needs urgent attention — that does not mean "draft a fifth-rounder and hope he pans out in three years' time". It almost certainly means "overpay an average veteran". If he can learn this, I'd be happy to give him at least another year.

I'm less optimistic about McCarthy. I wanted him to hire a real offensive coordinator last year: preferably a dynamic young mind. I'd have liked to see how they bounced off each other. It's probably too late now. McCarthy's 2007-08 (post-Jags, pre-Capers) coaching staff was really weak and I think that's still affecting the team.

My only hesitation is: who replaces him? I don't want Capers.

The only reason to fire TT after the season would be if he retains MM.

McCarthy just can't hack it. With the notable exception of Aaron Rodgers, he's failed to develop the players he's been given.

I say this with a big IF, but like an earlier poster, IF they make the playoffs it would be a miracle of a coaching job considering where they appear to be at. I think MM gets another chance if they do that.

Is Jags available to coach right now? Has he signed with somebody? I always liked him and thought he was a pretty good coach.

OK, good idea for a thread, maxman.

Taking them one at a time- MM is gone after this season. Period.

As I've said several times- give TT another year, but make that contingent on him getting more involved in FA. No, I'm not suggesting he throw mad money at first day players. Just that the Packers get some veterans to upgrade at various positions. Now, since we're not sure who will be available right now, lets see who is available before suggesting players. Also, lets always remember- Green Bay, Wisconsin are not the most desirable destination for a pro-football player. Small, white city; cold climate; high taxes. These are also factors that come into play. Face it- if you were young, rich and black, would you like to play in GB, or Miami, NYC, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Florida (like Texas- no state tax). For us, its simple- TT, get the guy I just posted about! If you don't, you're a bum!

I also have to say getting rid of someone is easier than replacing them with someone who can do better.

Sounds like a coaching problem to me.

Here is my two cents if it matters...

MM

He is great with QBs
His passing offense is pretty good
He abandons the run too early if successful or not
Not very good at getting the O-line together
Not very good at disicpline

TT

Drafts well (honestly name one GM that hit it on every round every draft)
Has a good sense of talent
Holds on draft picks like gold
Does not play in free agency too often

To me MM should be O-coordinator, TT should stay on one more year.

If the Packers fail to improve over last year, I would like to see McCarthy go.
What does that do to the team?

What happens with Capers? Remember the defense is still Ranked #4
What kind of coach do you bring in? A coach with the west coast offense or something totally different?

WC coaches available

Gruden - I will pass
Shannahan - On the fence
Holmgren - Preferred, would he take another shot with the Packers?

I think Holmgren discipline style would be great, but still do not like the pool of former Super Bowl winning coaches. I think it is becoming a young coach's league. Look at McDaniels and Tomlin. I'd think about a guy like Jason Garrett, good young O coordinator and would hurt the Cowboys which is always a nice side benefit.

I dont mind keeping TT on the off chance he drafts another Steve Hutchison.

I would be ok keeping TT if he signs guys like Hutchinson and makes trades like for Jared Allen type players. No more building through the draft. A win now league.

Any evaluation of the staff and management should wait until the season is over. However, I am for keeping TT and on the fence about MM. Gruden, Holmgren, and Shannahan were all fired or forced out. Whether you believe it or not, it was time for Holmgren to go in Seattle. TT has supplied a good amount of talent for this team and I don't know that MM and staff have done enough with it.

It doesn't seem like you got the point. Not trying to be rude but, it was Ted Thompson who drafted Hutch.

Thanks. And you're not rude. This is a damn hard time for a lifetime Pack fan. Hell, I really thought after the preseason that The Pack may have had a chance to go the distance this year.

I would like to see TT return next year and utilize free agency to fill a few holes. Not go wild into it but compliment the team with a few veterans especially along the offensive line. I do not know what free agent veteran center is out that but we could sure use a good one along with a left tackle.

I had as much of hard time with the Tampa loss as anyone else. However, to lose to them is inexcusable. I tried to stay positive throughout this earlier season but I have jumped ship on MM. The only way MM should be coaching the Packers next year is if the Packers miraculously make the playoffs.

I would like to keep Capers as the defensive coordinator and bring Mike Shanahan in as head coach. MS worked at the University of Florida and the University of Minnesota, turning around both football programs into offensive powerhouses. In 1992, MS was hired as offensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers on George Seifert's staff. With a likes of Steve Young and Jerry Rice the 49ers had a high power offense and a Super Bowl Championship. MS, with his discipline and offensive mind set, led the Bronco's to two Super Bowls. He is known for a run heavy variation of the West Coast offense he coached in both San Francisco and Denver. Plus, he has a career winning percentage of 60%.

The only problem with MS coaching next year is his contract with the Denver Broncos. If he doesn't bad mouth the organization and does not coach another team, he will collect $7 million. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/If-Mike-Shanahan-stays-quiet-he-ll-get-7-milli?urn=nfl,177594

I think the Packers will be fine if TT taps a few free agents to help the offensive line, fires MM for MS, and keeps Capers as defensive coordinator.

TT will probably get another year to bring in a new coach, in order to verify if it is the coaching or the talent that is causing this team to fall short. With a franchise QB, decent skill position players and a defense that has some players the cupboard is not bare. An offensive line upgrade, maybe a running back and a safety and who knows what might happen. I would like to have seen some better results this year, but maybe next year some of these young guys jump up and live up to potential. IMO, TT has provided enough players for this team to be competitive. I honestly can't believe that almost all the preseason prognositicators were wrong about this teams talent and potential. Consistency is the problem and that is coaching.

MM is going to be gone unless he wins 6 of the remaining games. Too many penalties, poor special teams and lack of improvement in problem areas (nothing gets cleaned up) are recurring themes. He just doesn't seem to have the mettle to be a successful head coach. Arm chair quarterbacking/coaching is not my area of expertise but it would seem to me that if Grant and Green are having success against a team like the Bucs you figure out a way to grind out the 4th quarter with the lead. Maybe that is too simplistic. It just seems that MM doesn't know how to forge an identity for this team.

I believe Thompson should stay for at least one more year. I think the talent on this team is good, but for whatever reason McCarthy and his staff just cannot develop it. The defense this year is solid and Capers is doing a decent job, but when they are forced to be on the field the majority of the game due to the ineptness of the offense (the play calling in particular), points are going to be given up as the defensive players wear down. The only thing I'm questioning about Thompson right now is his ability to evaluate and find the type of offensive linemen that fit into McCarthy's scheme, but again, I'm not sure the players are the problem. Remember, he helped draft Steve Hutchinson in Seattle, who is now arguably the best guard in the league. Unless that was a total fluke, I would have to think Thompson has the ability to find good players, including offensive linemen. Has he missed badly on draft picks too? Absolutely (see Justin Harrell). When it all comes down to it though, I think Thompson picked the wrong coach and needs to correct his mistake. I'm not sure who the proper coach would be, but I hope he's able to find him, for the sake of the Green Bay Packers.

Thompson wasn't the GM in seattle who drafted him, not to be rude.

No. Would not retain either one past this season unless they make the playoffs and win a wild card game.

Things we know.

1) TT will not spend money in free agency. CW and RP were the exception not the rule.
2) MM sounds just like Sherman. Constantly with the "we will fix this" bs, without anything actually being fixed.

I would like to see McKenzie promoted to GM.

I am at the breaking point with MM, unless he reels off 8 straight wins and goes into the playoffs on a roll, he should be let go.

TT gets one more year. He needs to see his weakness regarding FA. I hope he doesn't use FA just to use it (cover his backside). He would need to be judicious, target one or two proven players who could make a difference at a position of weakness. If he can't get players on the team who can make plays by next year, then he should be gone.

The problem with letting MM go this year and TT next (if unsuccessful), the new GM would want to redo the coaching and that could put this team back by 2 to 4 years.

But nobody disputes that TT was in charge of drafting players in Seattle -- if you recall, that authority was stripped away from Holmgren (who was allowed to save some face by keeping the title).

I am not sure what you mean. If you mean that Thompson didn't have the title of GM you are correct, his title was vice president of operations. If you mean that he didn't make the pick, I believe you are wrong but I do recognize the confusion around the situation in Seattle. From everything I could find, Thompson ran the draft but did not build the team. Here are just a few links that I found.

From Wapedia

From Wikipedia

From ESPN

Here's a question: Does the impending deluge of UFAs and RFAs on the GB roster make it more likely that Thompson is safe this year? or less? Do we want to saddle a new GM with the problems of 2004, but multiplied by 10? How could a new person be expected to know more about the UFAs and RFAs than a guy who has been here for 5 years? Or would it be better to have a fresh set of eyes evaluating the talent? But back to the other hand, the confusion at the top may very well lead to mistakes being made in retaining or not retaining personnel, like TT in 2004.

Discuss amongst yourselves...

Well; the answer kind of comes to this-

New Gm would indicate new HC. Both would have plenty of film to look at and time to meet players and staff and decide who to keep and who should go from staff down to players. And if new HC; then it is what will he run for Offense and for Defense and what players they need to operate both successfully. What would be ideal IMO; would be someone familiar with WCO and runs some version of it. As for Defense; believe we are suited for either 3-4 or 4-3 and would prefer to go back to 4-3.

But as far as changing GM's with a big FA year for us coming up; it's no biggie for a new GM; but could be costly for the Pack if TT IS here for only a year and then a new GM comes in stuck with players that he wished he didn't have with big contracts....Like TT had from Sherman.

Would they have plenty of time? FA starts, what, end of February? Say the GB season ends out of the playoffs, so the first weekend of January. So if they both go Murphy would need to hire a new GM, that GM would need to hire a coach, they would need to review a ton of film to make decisions on players... all within what, 5 weeks? And that's not even considering preparing for the draft.

It's a tough call - I can see MM going but not at the same time as Ted. There would just be too many balls in the air.

I think the question is two parts.
1. IF TT goes then MM goes as well. Who are the GM canidates out there? We would never know but the front offices do and it may be that there's not a TT replacement out there. Please no Parcells, I live in Dallas and he's not coming to Greeen Bay. Cowher was never a GM and Holgrem wasn't a very good GM either
2. Does TT stay? I think he does. He has talent in player selection from all size schools. Drafts well maybe not great but good enough. Just doesn't use FA enough to fill in the weak areas of the team.
If TT stays, does he stick with MM? If the team doesn't go 8-8 or better, doubt he does. If they go 8-8 expect MM to replace his offensive coaching staff. Don't think the line or Co-or. are good enough to get the job done.

The team has to get better and MM has to show he can keep the team together.

How can MM keep his job and still gut the offensive coaching staff? He already dumped teh Defensive side. 7-9 and he's gone. 8-8....maybe.

It's just too early to ask this question, specifically of MM. We are only at the halfway point. If they finish 10-6 or 11-5 and snag a playoff victory, why on Earth wouldn't we bring him back? Conversely, if we go 4-12, why wouldn't we fire him? Contrary to reports otherwise, there are still 8 more games left on the schedule and nobody knows what is going to happen.
I happen to be fine with TT for the forseeable future. His failures with the offensive line are the ones that stand out, and whether or not he adequately addresses these in the draft and FA will determine his legacy with the team (well, and that other thing).

Well- The firing might come at the time you are speaking of. However; if Murph is looking for a new GM; odds are he has a list already and would be working secretly behind the sceens w/o TT's knowledge. Therefore while it would seem like only 5 weeks; reality might be the new GM had more lead time then that. One other point- TT works for the Pack; so if he's fired; his draft notes and so forth stay behind and are property of the Packers.

I told someone I know, who hadn't seen a preseason game, that the Packers looked like they were in midseason form.
Looks like MM was game planning after all.

To revisit the Hutchinson thing. The Vikes have, I believe, over $100,000,000 invested in LT and LG, alone. I'd love if TT could draft another guy like that, but is that the kind of bidding war we want a GM to get into? Those are scary numbers, unless they're lottery winnings. Makes you wonder who they're going to be losing when they're rookie salary contracts come up.

As regards McCarthy:

— he's obviously on a page with Aaron Rodgers: changing to a new system might be a setback;
— the veterans, when healthy, are more productive than ever, and coaching is a part of that;
— he has quietly developed one of the better run-blocking schemes and units in the league, although it's still flimsy in power situations;
— hiring Capers and his 3-4 defense looks like a very shrewd move;
— the Packers have had a positive turnover ratio three years running: McCarthy has emphasized both sides of the equation with extraordinary success.

I will contintue to beat the drum....If we make the playoffs....theya re back. No playoffs...they go.

The NFL has so many crappy teams this year that not making the plaoffs has to be viewed a failure.

If we go 10-6 and miss the playoffs I might relent for a year.

MM needs to completely abandon the ZBS if he returns. We need a power RBS as our primary mode.

This means bigger OLinemen like Sitton and Lang. The rest are too small (I'm excluding the decrepid OT's)

well I have been on the MM train and have one foot off since the Tampa game. However 7-4 and in a wild card slot with 5 to go does not and should not get a coach fired. MM has NOT lost this team as many thought 4 weeks ago. He has made very good adjustments beating the Cowboys, 49ers and Lions. If this team goes 3-2 the rest of the way they are in. That would make 2 playoff appreances in 3 years and 1 Being a loss the NFC championship. This could be done with 2 different QB's mind you not an easy task.

This team is playing very hard for MM you can not discredit that however mad or dislike him.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that MM needs to rip off 8 straight wins.

He has 3.

There is only 1 reason (for each) that is killing me. TT should be kept another year but if he fails to seriously address the offensive line, I'm done. MM is a decent coach I think but his acceptance of mental errors and sloppiness at times drives me nuts. At this point I'm in for him having another year.

MM isnt going anywhere. The Packers arent coughing up $12 million to pay him off, plus the cost of a replacement.

TT on the other hand, is owed a managable $6 million, doable but still unlikelyhe'll be gone.

These next few weeks will be interesting. I think Thompson's relying primarily on the draft could come back to haunt him. This teams depth could be exposed and its not pretty. Relying primarily on the draft you can become a victim of the drafts talent levels. Instead of going after that tackle (or any need position)in FA, you are stuck with whats available on the college level, and hoping one hangs around for your pick that pans out. I'd like to see him use some of the other tools available to him (trades, FA's) to upgrade this roster.

I'll be honest - I didn't expect us to rattle off three straight wins after that Tampa game.

I have nothing personal against McCarthy. If this team can win with him, then he should be our coach. But if not, then he needs to be gone. The team is winning right now, but win or lose, there are issues on this team that need to be addressed. I'm still not sold on some of McCarthy's decision-making. Special teams are a disaster, penalties continue to plague us, etc.

I am with Sinatra...On the thinking of 3 Wins in a ROW... That was nice...

My take on all of this talk on TT and MM being fired or let go after this season if there is not a Playoff run and such... I am on the fence.. this is why...

The Team really came to MM's defense after the Cowboys game and gave him the game ball. Either way you may view this , that is a sign of team loyality which nowadays gets overlooked.

Rodgers calling that team meeting I think has a lot to do with MM tutoring him and teaching him how to be a QB in the NFL, and Rodgers stepped up -I think this may have something to do with MM standing by him for 2008.

TT on the other hand , Not sure what his issue is on FA , does not really show his cards in this area and maybe he does not want to overpay, maybe he does rely on the draft too much. But I also rememeber at the beginning of the season and listening to a few interviews, one with Tomlin and another had to do with the Colts and the Pats... 3 very succesful orgs , and they stated they do get involved in FA , they like to sign there own players that they have a lot of time invested in.

Can Lang become a top Ranked OT- he is not doing bad in his first year...And Add Sitton as Guard , Spitz coming back as center and there are 3 of the 5 OL positionss. So now it is either play and keep Colledge with a good replacement in mind to come in and compete.. now what about the other Tackle...As we know Lang can play either so far... So maybe a FA or as we have seen if we can get a Top notch Tackle in the draft...Why not...This could go either way.. And who knows maybe Tauscher or Clifton still have a few years.

I tend to look at the long range goals, we have had TT since 2005 and MM since 2006. I am more then willing to have one more year with these guys at the helm, and possibly more. I do see some changes that I would like to see made in my humble opinion.

OL Coach.. I have stated many times when this debacle of a line started off this year we should have brought Jags back as a consultant to help, don't care if it is Jags or whoever as long as they bring in someone that is better then Campen and Fontenot I hope.

ST coaching, I was more then willing to give Slocum the benefit of the doubt when this started this year. But not really any major improvements on ST , the penalities are almost predictable when we return and the return coverage is scary to say the least. I am not dinging on Crosby but it appears he has digressed since Slocum has taken over, I mean this is the first year since he got here I get a tad bit nervous.

The overall view I percieve is as follows, TT and MM make some of there decisions based on there feedback from the coaches that handle each position and area of the team. Everyone should be held accountable as we did after last year with the Coaching changes we made, and as Barnett and Rodgers pointed out in some there own comments on the team play. Which brings me to the positives of TT and MM.

I do not see TT and MM the kind that stay with a decision no matter what, with a coach or a player if they made a mistake, just look at the players and coaches they have let go. Also look at this years Draft and other player and coaches aquistion. ( And yes I know there is a few players they are currently holding out hope for)

Woodson, Pickett , Chillar, Hawk, Rodgers, Jennings , Grant, Collins, Jolly, Finley, Nelson, J-Jones, Crosby just a few that I think are good or better then good players that are paying off .

The hiring of Capers could be at the end of the day and the end of this season the best move we have made in quite a few years. Our D was 20'th last year overall and 26'th in Rushing, and 12'th in passing. What a drastic Improvement with basically the same players. ( Ponder on that for a minute or so). And I still do not think the D has hit full stride yet.

It is always easy to see the flaws in anyone and there areas of weakness, but TT and MM do have some strengths and tangibles that at times get overlooked. Do they make mistakes, yeah but dont we all.....JMO

My issue was MM and his playcalling. He has gone back to the short passing game that this talented team is made for.

TT has done a very good job with getting talent on this team, besides the OL.

Last year people were upset that Packers did not get Gonzo from the Cheifs. Well he held to his offer and look what the Packers already had in Finley (a TT pick). This year we did not go out and sign a big free agent to help the defense, and look it is a top 10 with the players year and depth from the draft. Picket looks better at nose than Haynesworth and a hell of a lot cheaper.

A win on Monday would mean one step closet to keeping the tandem unless they would totally fall apart but with the schedule till the end dont see that happening.

As thrilled as I am with the last three games, I'm with you on your last statement. There still needs to be some in house tweaking of these issues, plus the O-line (although improved) still is a question in my mind.

They got lucky that Lang is filling in admirably at multiple spots. This is why TT relies on the draft. When (inevitably) a player goes down, the next (talented) player needs to step up. Lang is a perfect example of how it is supposed to work.

Will Lang turn out to our best linemen by next season?????

They got lucky that Lang is filling in admirably at multiple spots. This is why TT relies on the draft. When (inevitably) a player goes down, the next (talented) player needs to step up. Lang is a perfect example of how it is supposed to work

We could go back and say that Wolf got lucky when Clifton and Tauscher stepped up as rookies and anchored the ends for the Packers. Ted deserves credit for drafting a guy is ready to go and filled in at a number of spots.

My statement may have come across wrong. I wasn't taking a shot at TT. I was referring to how fortunate it is for a team (any team) to have a rookie come in and play well when called upon. Not many rookies are projected to fill this roll, kind of like found money.

Stuffin I did not think you took a shot at Ted. Just point out for some of the crowd that at times a GM does get lucking with getting rookies that can fill in at tought spots on the field. And that they also can happen to find them later in the draft.