New Poll on home page.

YES

Yes its time, but it wont happen. The Packers would owe McCarthy $12 million. In todays economy and the Packers situation. It wont happen. He's here for awhile.

I hope your wrong.

Its time for a change.

Its just not the $12M they would owe McCarthy but what a big name HC would command salary wise. Lets also face history. The last hires in Green Bay, McCarthy, Sherman, Holmgren, Rhodes even going back to Infante were all coordinators. This organization (BOD/EC) does not have a history of paying big bucks initially to a HC and giving them control of the team. Dont see that changing anytime soon

No. After the season. Murphy needs to make a change. Rodgers is too good and young to waste a career. The Pack needs a different philosophy on how to field a winning team.

How long is awhile?

We just lost to the 0-7 Bucs with a rookie Qb who embaressed us.

We need sweeping changes.

Murphy needs to take the same approach Ted Thompson did. Sit back and observe his first year, then bring in his own guys in the off-season. Both TT and MM need to go after this season. Murphy won't continue to be embarrassed by guys that weren't his hires.

That's a pretty big change for you. You were pretty staunch in the support for TT and MM. Not singling you out, just remarking on how many staunch TT and MM supporters are now thinking they need to be let go. How quickly things change in the NFL and in life for that matter.

Yep. I supported them through the whole Favre fiasco, and I still say they made the right move. Building a winning team around our new QB is an entirely different issue. Everyone has their limits. I've reached mine. I don't expect changes overnight, but I do expect to see progress. When I see things going backwards, with no accountability, that's when I've had enough. I'm sick of the same old excuses MM uses week after week.

I'm not sick of the excuses, because I'm not sure what you're supposed to say. How does it do anyone any good for he head coach to come out mid-season and say, "I don't know how to fix this." or "We don't have the talent on the offensive line and my QB hangs on to the ball way too long." If you're not going to say this, your only options are to say:
We'll fix this. (Which is what MM says) or
We're packing it in.
I'm not one to dislike a coach or a player because they are failing. I think these guys put more of their time, their lives, and their heart into these jobs then any of us on the outside looking in can comprehend. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are mediocre. MM has established himself to be a mediocre coach. I've been a big supporter of both him and TT, but I thought this season was a referendum on their tenure. They had the 13-3 season and the 6-10 season, so what are they? Well, we're starting to see what they are.
The TT thing ... man, I love the Packers too much for this, but I'd really like to read this board when we have a GM who actually really does suck, like they have had in St. Louis, Detroit, Kansas City, Oakland (the deceased Al Davis), Washington (Snyder). You know, where the game is already over because you don't have the talent to compete with real football teams.

so i'm thinking bill cowher sounds pretty good right about now

I've also supported both of them up until now. I wouldn't call my support staunch, but I was willing to let them do what they felt was right and see where it went. It is no painfully obvious that their plan isn't working. I'm not ready to put the blame squarely on Thompson because I think he's given McCarthy freedom to be the head coach and do what he thought he needed to in order to be successful, but McCarthy just doesn't have what it takes to be a head coach in the NFL. The offensive line problems are a product of both Thompson not putting enough importance and emphasis on that area in both the draft and free agency as well as flat out terrible and ineffective coaching. This team's 25 year old franchise quarterback may have to use a walker by the end of the season (possibly sooner) and McCarthy obviously has no clue how to fix the problem or at least make it not as bad. Unless it is a financially impossible scenario, McCarthy has to be gone once the season winds down. If he can't go, well then I'm afraid we'll be suffering through another mediocre season or two after this one is over (assuming that the Packers finish the season without a playoff birth, which I can't imagine not happening at this point). This season is so disappointing, and I fear for Aaron Rodgers' career. It'll be a miracle if he escapes the season without a serious injury of some kind.

Let me also say I'm not jumping ship because of today's loss. I've been slowly losing confidence in McCarthy for a while now, but after watching how several important facets of the team continue to regress as well as his apparent inability to fix problems (he literally seems lost), my support for him is now gone, sealed by today's loss. As for Thompson, I'm still on the fence, but both legs are now swung to the other side. I wouldn't be upset to see both Thompson and McCarthy fired at the end of the season, but only if Murphy can actually find and afford to hire somebody better.

Forget Cowher. Not going to happen. If Cowher ends up anywhere, it'll be with the Panthers. Why? Because his wife is originally from NC (I believe), and wants to re-settle there. How about John Fox (in this scenario, late of the Panthers)?

Quite seriously, although I think MM is proving he is not the answer (and Brad Childress is in Minny?!), his replacement won't be easy to find. The first question- do the Packers do a "clean sweep" and also dump TT? And, if so, now they have to hire a HC and GM. Sure, Accorsi could be a terrific start- unless you give Holmgren the reins to be a Parcells type "uber manager", as in Miami. Which did fine last year, and this year- well, a year can make a whole lot of difference.

Really, lets think about this issue. If the Packers get rid of both TT and MM, who would replace them?

That's the problem I'm seeing at this point, especially with Thompson. I may be wrong, but I would imagine that a good GM is more difficult to find that a good head coach, especially since the GM is the one who has to find the good head coach. Not sure how Holmgren would do as a GM, and while having Cowher as head coach would fantastic, we've all seen how allowing someone to be both GM and head coach has worked out in the past. While the thought of a new GM is exciting, it's scary at the same time because all it would take is the wrong hire for the Packers to end up rolling with the bottom feeders of the league, and right now the team is nowhere near that bad, except for maybe on the offensive line. However, I can't help but believe that it wouldn't take much to find a better head coach than McCarthy at this point.

Fire Thompson and keep McCarthy because of his fat contract (12 million over the next three years).

Promote Reggie McKenzie to GM.

I actually think it should be the other way around. Fire MM keep TT for another year.

Is Tampa a more talented team than us? No.

Were they more inspired and prepared today? Yes.

We lost cause of coaching not talent.

I see your point, but 12 million is a lot of money. I don`t think the Packers will choose to eat it.

Keep TT and he will bring in another dipsh!t.

Oddballs attract oddballs.

Maybe there should also be a poll to see if we need to make a change at the General Manager level

My thoughts exactly.

Agreed.

A change needs to start there. The talent level is very questionable in some important spots.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat, too. Supported both guys, but I really can't anymore in face of continuing failures. The 13-3 season is looking to be a fraud ala the 2001 Chicago Bears. I've officially lost all faith in Mike McCarthy. I'm sure he's not indifferent to all the mistakes, but they are most certainly not being corrected. He seems to have lost his team and his play calling is terrible.

TT is on thin ice as well. It's hard for me to decide if the players are good and not being coached correctly or if they're just not that good. Since we can't afford to fire both McCarthy and Thompson, I'd be inclined to keep TT around another year and see if he can turn it around. He gets a lot of flack about not playing in free agency, but there just wasn't much out there this year. It looks like this last draft might turn out some good players in Raji, Matthews and Lang. That remains to be seen. But his failure with the offensive line is inexcusable. And our CBs aren't getting any younger. We've never been able to generate a pass rush under his tenure, either.

Sigh. This is where it would be nice to have a rich owner who could afford to cut bait, pay a big name coach 6 million and get on with life.

Joe Philbin, Shawn Slocum, James Campen, Jerry Fontenot, Jimmy Robinson, Edgar Bennett.

All appear to be horrible failures. Campen and Fontenot's, along with Robinson's, entire units are actually regressing. I'm not sure Bennett is adequate for the NFL. I'm not sure what Philbin gets paid to do. and I am sure Slocum is an idiot.

MM apparently thinks that discipline just happens if you talk about it enough. If he doesn't have enuogh sense to replace at least 4 of the 6 at seasons end, then he deserves to be canned. If TT doesn't have enough sense to do that, he deserves to be canned.

I'm starting to wonder about Capers. I know he doesn't have the talent he needs to what he would ideally do in the 3-4, but he doesn't seem to be making the right adjusments with what he currently has.

After AR's recent performances, I'm having some real doubts about Tom Clements too.

I have yet to see what all the fuss about Winston Moss is about.

Trgovac's unit is really the only one that is usually excelling. Maybe he'd be a good candidate for HC.

The thing that is just disturbing to me, is the across the board regression of the entire team. How is it that 90% of the players seem to be getting worse from week to week. Even Matthews and AR looked bad yesterday. The only thing that even seems remotely possible is that MM is telling all of his assistants to do the wrong thing. Or all of the assistants are coincidenally teaching all of the wrong things to their players simultaneously.

Whatever the problems, at this point, MM is failing as a leader.

I brought this up in another thread.

Yes McCarthy's buyout would be $12 million. But, I've seen many times throughout the years where coaches are willing to negotiate to a lower buyout.

Let's say he agrees to an $8 million buyout. He could then go somewhere else where he gets a fresh start (either as a head coach or a coordinator) and a place he feels wanted, and would still end up making the same amount or a little more in the 3 years he would've stayed in Green Bay with his new contract on top of the buyout.

This saddens me to write since I have been a believer in MM up till this point. I saw cracks last year, but thought he could correct, now it is apparent he can not. You talk about 12 million as too big a number to be able to change, but when you consider the amounts of money a pro football team generates it is not that big a number.

We all know the special story of the Packers being owned by the community. Despite a rabid fan base this team needs to put a good team on the field in order to ensure its existence. Having a bad coach is costing the team a lot more than his buy out...

But $12 million is a big number for the Packers.

When they released their financial reports earlier this year, they had $20 million of income. Buying out $12 million plus adding another head coach on top of that is a lot of wasted money.

The only way the Packers could financially afford to fire McCarthy, is if he agrees to a substantially lower buyout.

If MM keeps coaching as poorly as he has over the past few seasons, that income could very well turn into a loss... Probably a lot like most divorces, in that it is costly and difficult, but people do it when necessary...

At least another year, and likely 2. The Packers are very conservative. Under ideal circusmstances, if he had one year left I think he'd be gone, but that $12M REALLY ties the Packers hands. Perhaps they can get him to resign or work out some deal, but I doubt it.

I don't like the idea of changing the HC during the season. That being said, Does TT have much of a function for the rest of the season?? I don't think so, at least not until the Draft , why can't we get rid of him and start a search for a new GM prior to the end of the season. Do the research, and take your time to make the right move.

Do you make a decision based on one game?

a.k.a.

If we would have won on Sunday, would this topic be here?



I am losing faith in the system as well, but feel we need to wait until after the season to evaluate.

Good point. We are all venting our frustrations up to this point. If MM can somehow make the necessary adjustments and turn things around, no one will be calling for his head. If we end up 7-9 (as I predict at this point) it will be interesting to see what happens to the HC. As for TT, is he failing to bring in the necessary talent or rather matching what MM wants for his system (ie. small, "athletic" linemen for a crappy zone blocking scheme)? I'm not sure. He's missed on some picks for sure (ie Harrell), but I'm not sure he should be canned quite yet. Right now I see coaching the more pressing issue.

25 million wasn't a big number to offer Favre to stay away 2 years ago. It's not cap numbers so why not.

Indeed.

One winning season in four years and soon to be five.

GM Mike Sherman: 44 - 20 record.
GM Ted Thompson 35 - 37 record.

Sherman isn't looking so bad, comparatively speaking.

Please...

That was a 10 year personal services contact.

Paying him to make appearances ,etc on behalf of the Packers.

Not "PAYING HIM 25 MILLION TO STAY AWAY".

Why do I keep seeing that statemnet?
Could some have you been less informed???

Go Pack!!

Then why not trade him for the highest draft pick bidder if he had no worth? Didn't get squat from the Jets.

O.K. the monkey soul beat me to it. Up on Packers News Talk. Some criticism lately of Packer management. Some will never say a negative word. Lets move it up there. One topic. One thread, Imo.

Yeah there are like 10 threads on the same topic.

Green Bay is not owned by an owner with deep pockets so money does matter. I don't know what kind of financial shape the Packers are in but it wouldn't surprise me if they took a big hit in the economic downturn. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if eating these salaries is a lot more difficult financially than you think. I certainly think that if TT & MM were fired, the money would effect how much they could invest in a replacement. Money is a very real issue for the smallest market in the NFL.

Also, the money offered to Favre was over a long period of time and from what I have read, they believed that this money would be recouped over the lifetime of the contract. That offer was also made before the stock market tanked, I am not sure if they could still make that kind of offer. If you want to view it as a bribe - so be it - but from everything I have read there was a smart business component behind it (just really stupid timing).

I hope your wrong. I just feel like the team is going round and round and not getting anywhere. I don't have that, "We're up and coming", feeling any more!
RichardNixonn

The Packers net income was 20mil last year. It is public knowledge since it is publically owned.

Cutting MM costing 12mil, is that a lump sum or is that spread out over the remainder of the contract?

That makes a HUGE difference on whether to whack him or not.

McCarthy has been on a short string since the Packers went 13-3 with Favre and then went 6-10 and are now on the path to 6-10 again or worst with a very favorable schedule! I see no progress and in fact see regression with a loss of control of players. Examples, not utilizing Jennings with end arounds like other teams do such as hester and Desean Jackson. A defensive player head butting another player after a critical stop. Leaders in sacks allowed, leaders in penalty yardage/game, etc. I could go on. McCarthy has lost it and dare I say worst than Ray Rhodes!

What was McCarthy's success again? New Orleans? Look at them now! This occurred after he left! Yeah I know they have Reggie Bush and Brees, but Bush has played in about 35% of the games and yes Brees is a franchise QB. What do you call Rodgers and our group of WR'S?

Defensively, we were supposed to play a hybrid 4-3. Ain't seen it once this year. I do see Kampman our best pass rusher playing ass defense 10 yds behind the line of scrimmage. That makes perfect sense to have your best pass rusher playing pass defense.

Three years is nore than enough to move forward. We are regressing. I would spend the next six months interviewing candidates and their philosophy about things. Candidates Gruden, Cowher, Capers, etc. A surprise candidate, Charlie Wise. NFL experience with NE. Young candidates Ron Rivera Defensive coach at San Diego. Tough, hard nose, etc. Lots of candidates. I agree, end of the season move on the HC. Assistants O and Special teams, can be fired right now!

As far as I'm concerned, McCarthy breeched his contract by not producing any improvements in three years! We owe him nothing for the remainder of his contract!

I haven't brought up TT, but he is next on the short leash! That'll be 2011's decision if they don't make the playoffs!
He get's one more year.

I believe it is spread out over the remainder of the contract.

how awesome would Gruden be?