The hot seat just got MUCH hotter for Ted Thompson

No matter where the blame lies on the Favre divorce from Green Bay (I believe it lies mostly with Favre) the fact that Favre has come back in a Vikings uniform and beaten the Packers twice will cost TT his job (warranted or not).....

And as we learned with the TT hire/Mike Sherman firing, MM will soon follow TT out the door as the new GM will want his own guy

Those two guys are the sickest people in Packer Nation today

Hard to argue with that, Max.

Thompson can't feel real good right now. Nor can McCarthy. And nor should they.

I can't see either of them being shown the door after this year (unless we're sub-7 wins again) but next year it's going to be put up, or shut up.

That in his 5th season, we're still this far behind the elite teams could cost him his job, I agree. That it was Favre who killed us is almost irrelevent, IMO. The Vikings found their missing peice with Favre. That was their one hole on that team. Our team has several holes and they haven't been filled. We made a good transition from an aging QB to a young one that's at least as good. Replacing good players with other good players is nice, but eventually we need to replace poor players with good players, especially on the offensive line.

Is he going to get another year if the Packers don't make the playoffs? Maybe, but I wouldn't say it's a sure thing. Same with McCarthy. McCarthy may actually be the first to go. Maybe both. We'll see. Obviously a lot depends on how we do in the 2nd half.

If he makes it through this year and still has his job, I'm betting (I know this is a long shot) that Thompson tries to save face by being aggressive in free agency (I know, I know, I know...never going to happen) - it will be an act of desperation by a desperate man....

Favre beating us has no relevance on Thompson's job security. No matter what happens this year, Thompson's not going anywhere. He'll still be the GM for the 2010 season.

McCarthy is fine if we make the playoffs - if not, then he's probably in trouble. Campen's gone regardless. He should be gone today.

That is true for the educated, observant, open-minded Packers fan - most Packer's fan don't analyze things to the degree we do here - most only see Brett Favre beating the Packers - their noise will be heard...

I disagree. I think the front office currently in place for the Packers is extremely analytical and attempts to remove emotions from their decision making. As long as the fanbase is fractured on a matter, the front office won't be swayed one way or another, except by their own reasoning.

While there is a fairly sizeable and vocal group that wants Thompson and McCarthy fired, it's no where close to a majority.

Exactly my thoughts and I stated that yesterday. If he stays, I believe we will see just that; an act of a desperate GM. Murphy always has the ace in the hole as in TT not being his hire, so we may see him use that ace if things go bad this season.

This is very true...I'm a little surprised at everyone calling for his head after this game. The Vikings are a better team. They had a better record coming into the game. They were favored to win. I don't see how this loss is that surprising.

It might be after yesterday

I'm not saying I'm a proponent of any firings, just think they're not far off...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

I'm just predicting what I think will happen, not necessarily a proponent of it

And the Packers were a 3 point favorite to win yesterday - for what it's worth

Exactly.

We know it has more to do with the two losses, and not Favre (2) versus Teddy (0) games.

Minny is pretty good example of using all resources to build a team and that is highlighting Teddy's shortcomings right now.

The 2 losses speak louder than the Favre Teddy score, but that score will be a still be a bitter pill for the Organization.

The options available to the Packers make TT's seat even hotter:

- Mike Holmgren

- Bill Cowher

- Mike Shanahan

- Jeff Fischer (maybe)

All having coached in Super Bowls.

Putting aside the emotion of the Vikings games, you'd have to be a fool not to consider one of these guys an upgrade as coach or GM.

Not sure about the GM part but I could agree with the coaching part.

Maybe, it's going to be difficult. There just isn't as much out there as there used to be and the high end guys like Bart Scott and Albert Haynesworth are gone before free agency even begins (anyone really buying that the Jets' first contact with Scott was at 12:01 am the day free agency began? ). Unless Ted is willing to cheat and overpay we're not going to get the top names. And the middle guys are paid like top guys because there is more demand than supply.

Not sure how next years capless season is going to affect things either. And we've got a lot of our own guys to lock up. So he may be willing to play, but unable to do so.

I don't want Fisher, Shanahan or Cowher.

Fisher has done nothing.

Shanahan put together good teams, but they tended to always have some glaring weakness that was their undoing.

Cowher is a solid coach, but let's face it - he was there for what, 10 years? You give McCarthy 10 years and he might finally win one too. And you could say that the Steelers have been a better team since he left.

Holmgren is the only one that interests me, but I'm not sure he wants to be a coach still. I think he might want to follow the career path that Bill Parcells took.

If I had to rank them, it'd be:

1. Holmgren
2. Cowher
T-3. Shanahan/Fisher

Mike Holmgren could be a Bill Parcells kind of GM. Holmgren is VERY smart. I would love him to be the GM in GB.

EDIT: hey Sinatra, we were both thinking the same thing about Holmgren being like Parcells. It must be true!

If in fact the rest of the season does go poorly, I guess we'll find out what Mark Murphy is made of.

Yep and TT was not a Murphy hire so he can distance himself if need be, but I think all those guys are pretty loyal to each other. I think Murphy will give them every chance to succeed, for better or for worse.

Daniel Schneider will liberate one of those guys with a rediculous offer of money and power. Fisher I think will get another year in Tenn. Would love to see Cowher, but we'll be bidding against a lot of other teams for his services if he even decides he wants to return. I'd put my money on Shanahan if the Packers decide to go the route of an experienced veteran coach. Wouldn't mind Holmgren either.

What also has been exposed is the "youth" on this team. For 5 years we have been sold on the talented young players and how this will keep us on top for years. Where are they? Sure Jennings and Rodgers on offense and to some extent Collins on defense (and yes Matthews) but other than that are you comfortable? Look at #2 WR. Driver cannot go on forever, do you really feel Jones or Nelson can be a legit #2 in the league and take pressure off Jennings. At RB where is Jackson? enough said....the OL issues have been well documented so I will leave it alone. Pickett is a beast is BJ the long term answer? Hope so but behind him???. Woodson and Harris are top flight CB's but are you 100% sold on Williams? What is behind him??

Bottom line the youth on this team has been oversold and its showing

In defense of Cowher, I'd say the Steelers were always a thrifty team. Year after year, Cowher's players would mature and he'd lose them as FA's. Had the Steelers spent a little more $, Cowher might done more than win one and lose one Super Bowl.

The vikes beating the Packers 2x this season will not cost Thompson his job... not showing any progress this year will first cost McCarthy his job and ultimately Thompson's job. I expect Thompson will get a chance with another HC if/when it comes to that. There is talent on this team. The schemes, game planning, and overall coaching is what I am beginning to question. I espected some struggles this year with the defensive change and the shuffled OLine, but they have shown little improvement.

I think that sums it up pretty well. I see us finishing 8-8 this year, which would mean MM has one winning season out of four. That should be enough to get him out of here. Thompson will have one more year to try and turn things around. If the team shows marked improvement from this year to next, he'll stay a little longer. Otherwise he'll probably be gone after next season.

Hey, I guess I'm not the only one thinking this way

Saw the list of HC/ possible GM. Shanahan did win 2 SB's in row and started with beating us. No problem with him.

But one I don't want is Gruden. However, maybe MH for GM with Mooch for HC?

I think TT is safe yet; but MC is the one on the very hottest of seats. He hasn't proven to be much better then MS was IMO. There are reasons why guys like Jimmy Johnson, Parcells and the MH's are winners and in demand. They're relentless and have a high attention to every little detail. But as the Hears was saying last week; there better HS and college coaches then most of the NFL re-cycled guys; but they just never get the opportunity very much. Of course college coaches; why leave a secure job for the NFL that stands for Not For Long?

I would love MH back as HC nowdays; but he got burnt out in Seattle. If re-newed; he would be the top guy on the available list I would think.

I question the overall talent level on this team. Sure some of it may be game planning but did Mc Carthy get stupid after the 13-3 season, hope that is not the case. The one thing Favre has done over his his career is elevate the play of his teammates. It happened in Green Bay and its happening now in Minnesota. You can see the leadership and the confidence they play with. JMO but I think that Favre masked some of McCarthys flaws as well as some of the talent flaws on this team. You can only game plan and scheme based on what you have to dance with. McCarthy has no real running game to work with, very limited talent in the backfield when it comes to screens and RB's out in the flat. Is Capers holding back because he is aware he does not have the horses to scheme with?? I also expected the defense to struggle at time but this is beyond what I thought.

I think you will see Thompson retained with less responsibilities. I think you will see one of the vice presidents given the responsibility of trades and free agency. This vice president will have good communication skills, the agents will know this man has the decision making power.

TT has plenty of excuses to throw M3 under the bus, I see M3 taking the fall. I also see Dom Caper getting the job who also has excuses that M3 dictated the scheme to him. Capers can keep the continuity going on Defense, with Tragoic getting the DC position. I see them bringing in a fresh young mind as Offensive Coordinator. You will also see a new line coach for the offense and a new linebackers coach. This will be the last coaching shake-up untill TT gets fired if this doesn't work.

McCarthy has to go this job is way over his head and Green Bay will never be an elite team under him. Rationalize all you want this is the way I see it.

This is not because Favre beat us twice, with a good coach we would of beaten them twice, a good coach could of had this team prepared to overcome Favre's experience and the poor coaching of Chilly.
I hope this Favre situation dies off now, we need to concentrate on our team

Disagree completely. TT built a team that can't protect the QB and compete on the field. The o line is horrible.

His refusal to even look at FA's shows his stubbornness and arrogance.

We're not debating whether Thompson's approach to building a team is appropriate. We're talking about whether or not he's in danger of being fired this year. And he's not.

Unless the team wins significantly fewer games than I'm expecting, I suspect you're right.

The very basic truth of the matter is that, regardless of what some of the folks here want to believe, the Packers will never fire Thompson over the Brett Favre deal. In fact, the entire circus probably does more to ensure TT's job security than it does to damage it because he didn't make that decision in a vacuum -- all the decision-makers in the Packers organization would have been involved to some extent.

If the Packers don't make a legitimate shot at the playoffs, MM may have to worry about his job. TT, probably not so much.

WHEN MM & TT are canned, it should be a package deal. Either keep both of them, or fire them at the same time.

Another matter to consider is TT was building a 4-3 defensive line and a zone blocking line when McCarthy arrived. While I think the defensive line can convert to 3-4 with minor adjustments I don't see that on the other side of the ball.

I still don't think the o line is pro quality in either system but it is something to consider.

They have one more year if they don't make the playoffs, IMO.

I actually think MM might be on the hotter seat. He seems to have an undiciplined team where there isn't any accountability. That lies on the head coach. Firing GM's and coaches make me nervous because you never know what is going to be next but those 2 have to be feeling the heat.

Ray Rhodes may have had as much control over his team than MM does and that is a scary thing to think about.

I disagree. Holmgren was a dismal GM in Seattle. Cowher and Shanahan had input into the football operation, but were never GM's. Fisher, I don't believe, is going anywhere.

What I don't get is how the Packers rack up some of these penalties.

Take the Jolly penalty yesterday -- he's not some rookie. He knows, or should know, that his stupid action there was very likely to produce a new set of downs and a TD for the Vikings; what else could a coach possibly say to the guy or do to him that'd be worse?

I mean, focus penalties are one thing, but pure stupidity?

Reasons to oust:
- Some packer fans out there will not forgive TT for the Favre thing (doesn't matter where the fault lies). Yesterday's loss to Favre only fueled their hatred for TT.

- Many fault TT (me) regarding his building of the OLine as well as a few other positions. This is a bigger deal than the above IMO.

- While I am a proponant of not going hog wild in FA, FA has been largely ignored by this administration (don't point out Woodson and Picket. I know they were fantastic signings 4 years ago). It should be used to fill holes and we aren't filling them. We, as in knowledgable fans, knew going into this year that we had potential holes on this OL as well as some other positions. Don't tell me TT didn't know that.

- TT has a personality that does not draw in the average fan. People don't seem to trust or like him. Is this a reason to fire him? Not especially, but PR goes a long ways sometimes. His demeanor won't help him keep his job.

- TT's undying devotion to those he drafted. It seems sometimes players stick around and get the benefit of the doubt when maybe the cord should have been cut?

- MM has an undisciplined team. That reflects directly on him.

- MM seems to lack creative abilities. It seems to me that he gets outsmarted a decent amount of time.

Reasons not to oust:
- While we are full of despair right now we do not know how this season will play out. The vikes appear to be REALLY good. Losing to them does not mean we are average. I don't believe we are.

- We seem to be in a transition phase as far as philosophy. Perhaps they get 1 more year to work it out.

- I for one would like to see how TT reacts to the events of this year. I am fully up for giving him 1 more season. I would especially like to see him adapt in a few areas. I'm all for sticking to your philosophies but there are times when we all adjust our philosophies based on how they are panning out.

- Continuity. There is something to be said for giving someone time. There are a few coaches in this league whose owners stuck with them and it paid off.

- Perhaps we don't want a whole new regime at this point. New means more transition.

In evaluating the situation of both Thompson and McCarthy (IMO) the two main goals of every team, every GM and every coach is simple one win your division (this puts you in the position to compete for the SB) and Two BEAT your rival teams (in our case the Bears and the Vikings). Have we been successful enough in these two areas under this management team? IMO no we have not. We have a less then 500 winning percentage vs our rivals and one north division championship to show so far. Then the Key to if we fire Thompson and or McCarthy is if we are making progress to those goals.(i don't care how much talent another team has that is the hand you are dealt deal with it) IMO we have lost ground on both fronts and its time to change.

I have to admit I returned today to the 'fire Ted Thompson' websites out there. When TT was hired, all we heard about was "long term" the team would be better. I think we are in "long term". Quite frankly, I liked Mike Sherman's teams better. I fear the team has de-evolved back to the Bart Starr/Forrest Gregg times when 8-8 was viewed as a good year. I went to the websites initially because I thought he totally mishandled the Mike Sherman situation, costing the Packers millions when he knew he wanted to hire his own coach.

He's built a new core of players, but only a few of them are anywhere near good enough. When you look at the Vikings, as an example, you see a nice mix of free agents with some draft picks that stand out. Somehow, the Packers can't compete, especially on the offensive line. At the very best you should give that line a C-, and TT has no one to blame but himself. His love of being tens of millions under the salary cap for no apparent reason while other teams sign quality free agents is puzzling. The concept that you draft, develop and re-sign your own is a good theory on paper, but what happens if it still isn't enough?

McCarthy might be a good offensive mind, but it's painfully clear he's being out-performed as head coach by a number of others, including Brad Childress.

To me, Mark Murphy has to look reality straight in the eye. Aaron Rodgers is destined to be the new Lynn Dickey, a great QB surrounded by mediocrity or worse. This team continues to make stupid mistakes, which directly relates to a coaching staff unable to motivate players to do the right thing.

TT has to go, and with him McCarthy. Capers is worthy as consideration as head coach. Hire a new offensive coordinator and give Reggie McKenzie a shot as GM.

From another thread.



FROM THE After much thought: (AR/MM/TT) thread:

PackerJB said: “If the Packers have soooo much talent and don't play well, doesn't that fall on the coach? It seems we are a badly coached team.”


I responded: “DING DING DING, we have a winner. the lack of fire, the looking unprepared for such an important game. thats all on the coaching staff. add in the crappy game plans, and i'm jumping on the fire MM bandwagon. we cant run the ball, but he refuses to do short passes. we did it against the lions, against the browns, and not until the 2nd half did we start against the vikings. what took so damn long??? I think our talent showed in the second half. look how quick we came back. we dominated for parts of the 2nd half.

GET A NEW HC AND OC.“




http://www.packerchatters.com/4ums/index.p...40&start=40

I agree. I definitely think that MM is the one on the hot seat. Although TT doesn't do anything significant in FA this team does have good players. I am beginning to think that MM does not have what it takes to be a head coach....OC maybe but he can't do it all. I also think that the OL can get better, but the OL coach is not getting it done.

I think that MM would go before TT would.

Has anyone heard or seen anything from Murphy to give evidence that he has the balls to fire Thompson or do anything for this organization? He comes across kinda like Teddy Twinkletoes----dead from the neck up.

My 2 cents:


TT and MM arent going anywhere until at least after next season unless he Packers completely collapse and MM will be show the door.

The unknown in much of this are the ways of Mark Murphy. Is he a guy hell bent on winning?. Is he the empty suit William Ford type who gives Matt Millan a hundred years to fix the Lions? Nobody knows. It will remain a mystery in all of this

Any of the coaching heavyweights mentioned are going to want personnel power. Not sure the Packers organization is willing to give up having 2 people do it after the Sherman experiment.

What will make the Packer job attractive is a rising QB in place.

Holmgren left Green Bay for several reasons: 1: He wanted dual power as HC/GM. 2. He and his wife wanted a quality of life change 3. He got a good chunk of change from Seattle owner Paul Allen, a man with more money than all NFL owners COMBINED. I cant see him coming back to Green Bay. He's been there, done that.

Cowher is going to want the moon to coach in GB. Cant see us paying him or him wanting to come to GB. Not a good fit IMO

Shanahan is going to want total power. Cant see him getting it in GB

Not sure what people see in Capers as a HC, but I wouldnt want him for free.

Id rule out any college coaches they rarely pan out.

TT has one year left to get things turned around and the Packers back into the playoffs. If next year rolls around and we are 4-3 and heading towards another 8-8 season, TT's head will be on the line. Until that point, it is pointless to talk about it. He will not be fired this year. Time to move to a different subject.

If Murphy gets enough pressure from the board of directors, he'll have no choice but to get rid of TT.

So even if the Packers don't make the playoffs this season, TT is safe? Not so sure about that.

You're not?

The Packers haven't exactly been eager to turn over their staffs ever.

Absolutely. He is safe this year as is MM. Unless the wheels come completely off, he will be back next year. Different story next year though.

Yes. In a preemptive move, he may axe MM to save his job. Not sure of the dynamics between Murphy, TT and MM but they seem to be pretty loyal to each other, almost galvanized in the wake of the Favre incident. Connected in some respects. Murphy might afford TT, the higher up, the opportunity to make a change and see if the ship train could be righted. Who knows? I'm in the boat traincar that won't be suprised, either way, what happens.

That's what I'm thinking, TT I doubt could land another GM gig if he got axed here. MM had been the good little do what TT says, don't buck TT type coach. I think MM is gone at the end of the year. Dallas is playing much better, a wild card saves MM anything less he is gone.