Like everyone else; was thinking we'd be much better this game and looked for improved results. If not for the 3rd quarter rally; this would have been extremely ugly loss. This game is leaving me with more questions then answers. As some things aren't making sense to me............

1.) We picked up Tausch and Green out of desperation...(yeah I know others on the other post wish to say otherwise. But when everyone from former players to credible news people all agree it was a desperate move; then it's a desperate move period)

2.) Cliffton was declared ready to play. Some blogs even said he would start and then didn't. Does anyone know why? Wondering if I had missed something.

3.) Tausch was declared ready to go and that Barbe was going to be on a very short leash. Ummm 6 sacks doesn't sound like a short leash to me; does it to anyone else?

A Note here: I like Lang and he'll need sometime as would any rookie right? My thing is the same as what Chewy and other vets are saying. We have the youngest team 4 years running and lack vet experience and leadership. I'll credit TT for hopefuly seeing something needed to be done; whether it was out of desperation or whatever; at least he did something instead of nothing. I'm not saying that maybe Both Cliffton and Tausch in together at the same time; especially when Cliffton isn't 100%. But they should have had at least one of them out there IMO; because Rodgers is getting killed and everyone knows no matter who the QB is; they won't last the season at this rate. We didn't lose this game because Favre is better then Rodgers. As everyone else has said; reverse the 2 QBs and the record would still be the same for both teams. Nope we lost the game because games are won in the trenches (DL and OL) and neither was effective.


Next Part: I find this more disturbing yet.

1.) The OC says after the game that the Offense didn't have a good enough plan to execute? What?

2.) The seems to be players on Defense comming out against DC. One week, Woodson; this week Jenkins and both are saying the same thing basically. Jenkins put light on it this week. Find it on jsonline. When players are unhappy and speaking out on the DC that spells a possible disaster down road.

You know I would just love to blame everything on TT here. Mistakes he has made...heck yeah! No one is perfect though. The news guys are giving him a hard time. Well he's guy at the top and so it goes. However, I am starting to see this team be like the year Rhoades was here. It really could get that way if things don't straighten out soon.

But first back to the players and so on. RW and MH would decide together what players made up the final roster. Likewise; they all worked together on draft days too. So don't go to reason that TT and MC also make the final roster cuts together? Now,RW would grab players more so then TT does from FA; but at least TT; seeing the O-line with troubles; did bring back Tausch and because Green is considered one of the better chip-blockers; was brought back and thought to be used on 3rd downs. It was also thought that maybe with Green back; the team would return to what used to be it's bread and butter- The RB Screen pass. Under MH;(the early years) we went to the play-offs with mainly Sharpe as our Offensive weapon. Everyone knew the plays would go to him and they couldn't stop it. Now Sharpe was a great player; but also MH game planned to get the oppotunities in a game to get Sharpe the ball as well. If a player wasn't doing his job right; MH yanked him out.

Now Chewy is an Offense guy and he even says Defense wins Championships. Yet the players on Defense are calling to be turned loose to do what each does best. Hey, all they want to do is win.

This team IMO; this team is more talented then it's playing like. No team is perfect out there w/o flaws and injuries are always a part of the game too; so I'm not cutting any slack here. It's the coach's job to have players ready to play and put them into positions to make plays; and to make changes when things aren't working.

So these are the disturbing things I'm seeing, hearing, and thinking.

It is disturbing that a 5-3 team is having players talk the way they are. I am starting to think MM doesn't have the discipline to be a HC much longer.

If the team doesn't make the playoffs, does TT try to save himself by axeing MM?

To add to your desparation theory, does the signing of Capers also show a level of desparation?

Might be a good move.

Would that fix what is wrong, though?

MM can only work with the players that TT surrounds him with. A couple vets might make life easier on MM.

I don't think it would. I think the real problem is talent. I am not high on MM as a coach and I think getting an upgrade at that position would be great, but let's face it. Even Mike Holmgren needed a lot of talent to win the Super Bowl.

The case could be made that the o-line represents a failure of scheme and coaching -- you should be able to build a reasonable offensive line with the guys the team has.

I agree there.

I like TT's drafting and it is extremely exciting heading into each and every year with a young talented crop, but you honestly never know what to expect with his teams. If we won the Super Bowl this year, it would be hard to guarantee we would make the playoffs next year; there is this unknown with TT's teams each year. May be 16-0, but can go 6-10.

4-12 to 8-8 to 13-3 to 6-10 to ???

Larry

Not an MM fan?

My mantra will remain consistent, if they don't make the playoffs, they should both be gone.

TT has drafted well and with a decent OL coach the OL might be okay. The scheme and the coach suck.

MM has become Mr. Unaccountable - A lot of talk about fixing and little or nothing to show for it. this team is undisciplined and few undisciplined teams win.

If TT and MM are shown the door, we could fill both jobs with one man in the form of Mike Holmgren.

Before it gets to that, if the train feels to be leaving the station, I think all involved will cut loose and play with abandon in an effort to save their jobs. Fighting for their jobs will bring a renewed intensity. I know, they should be doing that everyday and I'm sure they are working as hard as they can but when your back is against the train wall, they might just try something new and invigorating.

I dont agree. Other than Rodgers, Jennings on offense and Collins and now Matthews on defense is there anyone that stands out as anything real special? In 5 years I would expect more than that. Average talent = average results

So what you're saying is that other than a franchise QB, a pro-bowl safety, one of the best WRs in the league and an immediate impact linebacker, his picks have only been average?

Yes the good teams draft 5-6 probowlers EVERY YEAR!!!



Go Pack!!

Over 5 years yes. He got Collins and Rodgers in 2005, Jennings in 2006. What else. 2207?? 2008?? Sure #52 looks like a stud but his overall body of work is very average

Lets just say I'm starting to doubt that he is doing the job that needs to be done to get the players to play at their best.

The potential of a lot of players is good on this team but I don't think MM and his staff are doing the job of coaching them up the way they should be.

Some people have been complaining about Capers 3-4 not working and now a couple have players have been heard from also. In the beginning of installing the 3-4 Defense Capers stated that it would be a hybrid 3-4. Others have said it would take a year of the players playing the 3-4 to get it down... I actually think they have done pretty well of adapting being that the Packers D is rated 4th in the NFL as of today.

So I guess the answer is yes that I am less of an MM fan now than at the beginning of this season.

I think the issue is that MM and TT have over-estimated the talent of this team. Here are some examples:

To think that Barbre was going to be the answer at RT was a terrible decision. You can not allow someone to develop during the season and ask them to be successful. Terrible decision #1.

Not providing an adequete back-up at LT was terrible decision #2. While Lang may get there, he is not ready. Colledge isn't the answer and we were shown that. Those two decisions cost us 2 games so far - maybe 3. Moving Tony Moll seemed to be a non-issue. Right now, he would be a significant upgrade at RT.

Terrible decision #3 - thinking Aaron Kampman would transition to OLB. It is apparent to all that he is not capable of doing it and at this point in time, may not even be interested in doing it. HIs lack of production hurts us and it really isn't his fault. He is a fish out of water.

Terrible decision #4 - the constant rotation at LB. Come to a set 4 and go with them. Trying to make them all happy has done nothing but make them all question what they are doing. Stop the revolving door.

Terrible decision #5 - Not addressing the S position. Atari Bigby has not performed and we continue to praise his abilities. Cut Anthony Smith and then trade for a S that also appears to not be a functional player in this system.

Terrible decision #6 - Philosophically not looking to add free agents as up-grades. We go for the cheap and that is what we get. Each year we pass on players that would help us and believe those we have drafted will fill the gaps. They haven't yet.

Forgot this one - but #7 - the continuance of running Ryan Grant out on the field. TT caved in and gave him a contract coming off the Favre soap opera. He is not the feature back that this offense needs and will not be. At some point, he has to be set aside and someone that can run to the open lanes and cut back will be needed.

These decisions are hurting this team and if things don't turn quickly, a year from now the seats in GB will be very hot.

The main thing that has plagued this team is disappointing 1st round picks. Harrell and Hawk have been huge disappointments. Hawk has now been reduced to playing 10 snaps a game as a role player. Harrell will probably be gone next year. We had back to back year with bad 1st round picks. There are players drafted in both of those drafts that could be an upgrade. There were good TEs and RBs as well as OL available in both of those drafts in the 1st round that could have helped this team. Instead we have a walking injury and a bust in another. I'll say Hawk is officially a bust at this point. You can't build a team by drafting OL in the 4th and 5th rounds and constantly using 1st and 2nd round picks on WRs and LBs. Teams like the Steelers and Patriots focus on building the trenches with high picks and trying to hit on skills position players with the later picks. I like the Matthews pick but most of Thompson's other early picks have been disappointments. I will give him credit for Rodgers and Jennings though. The problem is he built a piss-poor OL that is getting Rodgers killed. I don't know that you can say its all on the coaching regarding the OL. The Packers are one of but a handful of teams that doesn't have a single 1st round pick on the OL.

I'll have to wholeheartedly agree with #2. The lack of an adequate backup or even starting LT has now costed us games this year. I'll go with 3. In the three games we lost, the LT has given up 12.5 sacks. Those are sacks from just the opposing RDE playing opposite the LT. That amount of sacks woud be unacceptable if it was the entire OL. That is just from one position. Jared Allen has 7.5 sacks against us in two games. That is unacceptable. We don't have an answer at LT and that is Thompson's fault. He made absolutely no moves before the trade deadline. Even some already solid teams were out there making moves before the trade deadline. Here we had a huge problem and Thompson did absolutely nothing. We have to have the worst pair of OTs in the entire NFL at this point.

I see that Chris Chambers was cut today in San Diego. Here is another chance for TT to attempt to improve the team, but will not. Certainly not saying he is a cure all for us and a difference maker, but when we are playing Jake Allen as our #4 WR for the foreseeable future, on a team that likes to use 4 wides, Chambers would be an up-grade.

This to me again is an over-estimation of our talent on this team. I am not sure Jake Allen strikes the fear into defenses. With Chambers, we get a 31 year old vet that still can run and has about 500 catches under his belt. He would be a good #4 WR for this team and would be another target for AR. Not sure the same can be said about Jake.

I have to agree with everything you wrote.

I think number 5 could have saved this season. We didn't need Haynesworth, but that guy named Gross would have prevented major hemorrhaging.

Minny picked up valuable FA several years in a row, THE PACKERS have not and the difference is apparent

Wasn't Gross resigned by CAR before hitting the market?

Why does everyone credit Thompson for some wonderful draft with Rodgers? He didn't move up to grab this QB that he thought would be a franchise QB, Rodgers fell on daft day. Sure, other teams could have drafted him, but saying TT is a genius for grabbing a QB that literally fell into his lap is a little odd. I think TT is a solid draft guy, very good at getting players in later rounds. His record in the first round has been, to put it nicely, spotty. Aside from a QB that fell into his lap due to a very unique set of circumstances on draft day, where else has TT really proved himself with the guys that cost the most on the team? Those are the guys that HAVE to excel, when you pay a young player that much and they don't contribute, you've handcuffed the cap and your coach. The most damning pick has to be Hawk. Such a small sample size, but when you screw up the fifth overall pick in the draft, that haunts teams for years.

IMO- It was like when MS axed Donatell.... Someone had to take the fall for the HC mistakes. We went from 13-3 to 6-10 with basically the same team. As for the 3-4; that is what we had in place when RW took over everything and then switched to a 4-3. Fritz had wrote the book on Defense and you know RW & CO would have given Fritz whatever he needed. I'm not ever been a big 3-4 fan. The only reason teams blitz is because the front 4 can't get any pressure. Oh, we did run a version of 3-4 at first before we got Jones....that was brought here from 9ers....The Elephant formation...But that was basically a DE with LBer speed. Anyways; I think you know what I was trying to say (I hope)

The SB win year...yes, that was one of the most talented teams ever. However how about the years prior? With only Sharpe and Favre we still went into the Play-offs and won our home games and home play-off games.

Also; does everyone seem to forget? The last year with Brett we were one play away from the SB with a 13-3 record and since went 6-10 and now this year isn't looking good either? How can one say TT didn't get the talent when it's the same players on the team from the 13-3 year; plus new additions?

The O-line? yes, even a blind man can see that is messed up. However, both Cliffton and Tausch were back and available; yet this staff kept them on the sidelines and A-Rod got creamed again. That falls on coaching; not the GM.

(sorry used this post to reply to more then one

Actually, RW wanted to draft him; but because it was his last draft and MS was being made the GM/HC; MS wanted that infamous, all-pro Ferguson (being sarcastic) The word is Nelson should be back with-in a week or two and Chambers has really lost a step. Not like when we got Rison to replace Brooks. Still worth looking into though.....as the egnima Jones is still against the proverbial rookie wall in his what 3rd year?

I'm not as hard on 1st round picks here as others are. RW built most his teams with the middle rounds. His first round picks didn't always pan out either....T-Buck, Reynolds etc. BUT he did draft O-Line in the first round and he mainly took O-Line guys from big schools; not later round picks from small schools and the biggest difference is he took many FA's for O-Line as well; where I think TT has bombed out and rolled craps on his.

As for us getting A-Rod in the draft; I equate that to the Bucs getting Sapp and the Vikes getting Moss as they fell. Oh yeah; remember the year RW passed on Moss and who did we get? Holliday..a servicable DL; but he didn't turn out to be as predicted. So RW wasn't perfect by any means on first rounders. I think when all said and done he was maybe 50/50 on his first round picks.

Here are the next guys drafted after Rodgers. Which one would you rather have? I say none of the below.

25. Washington Redskins (from Denver) - Jason Campbell, QB Auburn

26. Seattle Seahawks (from Oakland through NY Jets) - Chris Spencer, C Ole Miss

27. Atlanta Falcons - Roddy White, WR UAB

28. San Diego Chargers - Luis Castillo, DT Northwestern

29. Indianapolis Colts - Marlin Jackson, CB Michigan

30. Pittsburgh Steelers - Heath Miller*, TE Virginia

31. Philadelphia Eagles - Mike Patterson, DT USC

32. New England Patriots - Logan Mankins, OG Fresno State

Preach it Brotha! I TOTALLY AGREE!

Not a bad list though...some solid starters. Some crap as well.

Now I am surprised. A rare thing for you to criticize anyone,unless they've posted something idiotic .I'm afraid that I share this viewpoint. Although I believe expectations got way too high for the team this preseason, into his 4th year I don't think MMs team always plays with the focus and determination that is required.I'm not all the way there yet, but I'm starting to think he might be losing some of the players. I've seen it before in Green Bay, not for a long time now, but the signs are there.

For sure, Heath Miller. Especially if Favre was still our QB.

Lots of good guys in that list that would have made an immediate impact on the football field. As opposed to spending a 1st round draft pick on guy who was scheduled to ride the bench.

This thread has so much speculation it's almost funny. Not your post in particular, just a general observation. I'll not stop that trend one bit...

So who would we have drafted as a QB last year and this year, had we not drafted Rodgers and Favre still played for us after retiring for a 4th year in a row but coming back a week before the preseason games? And would we have given up Mathews for that QB?

Another note about OL and RB's... Our OL is not great, neither is our starting RB, but I'd wager that 3 of our RBs could put up Emmit Smith numbers if they ran behind the 1990's Dallas line. I also don't think we run great running plays, but who am I?

Lastly, from the original posting in this thread, I read between the lines that the head coach has too much say in the Defense, and a little too much say in the Offense game plans. I would be really interested in knowing exactly what his role is in both on a play by play basis or day by day basis during the week.

The ship is not sunk, we have a winning record and yet another chance to beat up on down team this week. Until they're not a Packer, I'll continue to hope that everyone gets their act together for a few wins in a row and makes the playoffs.

Some people out there are probably hoping we don't make the playoffs so people get fired. That's just ridiculous. Basically it says, "I want to get to the playoffs some year, so I hope we don't make it this year so we fire everyone and have a chance next year." o_O?

Pikprin. That's a pretty poor opinion of TT's character, that you think his major justification for change would be to save himself.

Why not give him more credit and say does TT try to fix what is wrong with the team by changing the head coach ? At least that way he is portrayed as trying to do the best for the team, and I've always felt he does that, whatever the results.

I have shifted my opinion of McCarthy recently and now have at least one foot in the 'McCarthy needs to go' camp. I don't believe both TT and MM need to go, just that MM is riding close to the cliff edge. Among other things, he seems to lack man-management skills, and the ability to make significant adjustments (with the exceoption of sacking the defensive staff).

Maybe what TT needs is for someone else to assess him, and detail his strengths and weaknesses, and for TT to discuss the results of that report with Murphy, and then undertake to change what needs changing.

Adding more fuel to the Fire- Read Butler's 5 Questions..........

Raji has been useless this year, too.

I think the recent 2nd round problems also pertain. Colledge, Jennings Jackson, Nelson, Brohm, Lee. Jennings is the one winner, but Nelson isn't anything special and doesn't seem likely to become special, Colledge isn't good, and three other busts.

Draft isn't an exact science, I know that. But when you live entirely off the draft, you better be a lot smarter or a lot luckier than most or you're just another team. TT/MM haven't hit often enough.

I have generally been a MM/TT backer, and I thought the build-through-the-draft approach, with an occasional Woodson/Pickett type pickup was good.

But 5 years into the program, I just don't see many guys getting enough better, I don't see the talent really being comparable to good teams, and I don't see the coaching/discipline/smarts being good either.

I'd be happy to look for some new bosses.

While I agree with most said here; I wish to dispute 3.....

1.) Lee was a another FA pick-up right? A serviceable vet


2.) Raji- At least he's on the field unlike Reynolds and Harrell. He wanted to play from game 1 on but the staff kept him out. Recently Chewy and Larry M say it looks like he's getting better with that ankle. His entire game is explosion off the line with a quick first step and agility. Granted he's not what is expected yet; but he's not on IR either. Jury is out on him so far IMO

3.) Nelson- to me was coming on and knee happened. At this point; he's better then Jones and could be a good number 2 WR in another year. (and after Driver is gone; not before) Look at Reggie Wayne from Indy; it took him awhile to grow into his own also. Is Nelson a Wayne? Don't know. But Nelson reminds me of the WR opposite to Rod Smith in Denver back in Elway's time.

[quote name='Terranimal' date='Nov 4 2009, 04:51 PM' post='276521']

1.) Lee was a another FA pick-up right? A serviceable vet


I think he means Pat Lee, the CB drafted who did nothing last year and is on IR this year.

Boy, MM sure is losing the players.

I noticed those as well. I have more respect for Leroy then ever. He's a smart guy.

My take is that #4 masked some of the talent issues on that team as well as some of the flaws of the HC. Look at Minny now. How did Sid Rice become such a good WR? Harvin, the so called "problem child" and "bust" but where is he now. Hell look at Childress. Last year Peter Griffin (sorry Family Guy plug) looked more competent as a HC. Favre is one of those tyoes of players that elevates his teammates and can make Brad Childress look like Bill Walsh. When you get down to it the big subtraction we have from the 13-3 team is #4 and since his departure we are 6-10 in the last last 16. And look at Minnesota's record since his arrival.....

Wow. I've seen it all now. You're telling me getting a role player is going to make more of a difference for the next ten years versus a franchise QB. How is that even rational? Let's see. Since there are numerous articles about how much more talented the Vikings and Bears are versus the Packers, just how easy was it for them to find their franchise QB's?

Wednesday? 3days after the loss......geez. MH, Parcells; etc; would have gotten in his face immediately!

I'll stick with Butler's and other's comments; those who played game and won SB rings and so on.

IMO, waiting 3 days for that; had to have some heat from above (TT) to MM; because it's a different tone then MM's comments on Sunday and Monday.

Oh, and to another post; sorry. Totally forgot about Pat Lee; maybe because he's been like Harrell and been non-nonexistent?

In any case; wish for the best and prepare for the worse. Season is only half over after Sunday. Now starting Tausch and so on; all we can hope is this team comes back together and rights the ship.


New Defense Motto- "TURN THE DOGS LOOSE!!!!"

No, he talked to him on Monday. Jolly and Jenkins are singing the same tune that Finley sang last year, after his comments. There is no difference and MM still has his players, as always.

Jenkins apologizes for criticizing Green Bay Packer coaches

I just don't believe this is a big deal. A couple players say/do something boneheaded. That's news? It's not like in the past when guys like McKenzie and Walker demanded to be traded. Woodson and Jenkins have made comments frustrated about the defense, but I thik they were done in a fairly respectful way. They're just voicing concerns, and only want what they feel is best for the team.

Jolly did something stupid, and it took a while for him to admit it. Again, that's not exactly a new concept when it comes to NFL players.

Don't get me wrong, I have issues with MM but not having control of his team isn't one of them.

Good teams appear to find it pretty easy to read between the Packers' lines.

That was funny.

I have to agree BIG changes are in order in Green Bay this off-season. I wish Parcells was available.

As coach or G.M.? He's around 70 years old, not that it matters I guess, but I hate to see the Pack have to start all over if he would retire in a couple of years.

For a guy who uses speed and explosion off the ball it isn't easy with a bum ankle. Plus, in Williams rookie year in Houston he didn't set the world on fire but I doubt anyone is complaining about him now.

Okay...Cowhers? I think I'd rather have Ditka than MM. At least Ditka will get in the players faces and he's fun to watch!

Before everybody goes off on the Ditka comment, please note I was kidding. Thank you.

I guess I've mentioned Parcells because he's a no-nonsense guy and we've been missing that terribly. I don't think I can stand to hear another 'it's just part of the game' explanation regarding these boneheaded penalties. After reading Leroy Butler's comments following the Vikings game, I have more respect for him than ever. I wish Butler would get back into football in some platform, whether it be coaching or front offices. I'd love to see the Packers hire him. He's smart, devoted to the Packers, and understands what it takes to be a winner. He wouldn't fold his tent up at Ted's feet though so I don't think TT would hire him. I think he would end up making TT very uncomfortable.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/68644667.html