Well, that's a tough one to take. And it's slowly turning me, personally, in the direction of the anti-McCarthy bandwagon. We're talking about one of the biggest games of the man's coaching tenure with a chance to bring the division title back into the realm of possibility, and the team comes out flatter than a 2x4.

We are now a year and a half into the post-Favre era in Green Bay, with McCarthy and Rodgers. Typically, I avoid comparisons at all costs between pre and post Favre eras, the two QBs, etc., but there is no better time than the present. In those 24 games, I feel that we have ONE quality win, coming vs. the Colts last year. Otherwise, we beat on the bad teams (Lions, Rams, Browns) and will occasionally grab a win against an average team (Chicago) but we really don't have much to hang out hat on.

The comedy of errors has got to stop. Every week we hear about how we'll break down the film, adjust our pad level, look for pawsatives, and move on. We'll clean our house. We need to win at home. We'll do this. We'll do that. Eventually, it's got to get done or the seat is going to get hot real fast.

I still don't want to see that zone right run play that we call on 80% of our first downs. I would love to see that short/intermediate passing game that inevitably gets us back into games we lose after McCarthy's play calling early on digs us a hole. We do two things. Zone runs, and deep drops. The latter is going to get Aaron killed with the state of this offensive line. McCarthy NEEDS to adjust.

At the same time, he's working with a partially empty cupboard. Offenses have been able to ride a elite quarterback/receiver combo to success for a decade, as long as everything else around them is at least average. (See: Manning/Harrison; Montana/Rice; even Elway/Smith&Sharpe). Rodgers and Jennings have that kind of potential, but the offensive line breakdowns are too great to overcome in this offense at this point.

I look at the construction of this Minnesota roster. The drafting of Peterson. The trade for Allen. The signing of Hutchinson. The signing of Favre. The Harvin pick. The presence of guys like Winfield and EJ Henderson. There's an even mix of talented veterans and potential-loaded young guys. There's leadership. They have an identity on offense and defense. Most importantly, they're stout in the trenches on both sides.

At the same time, we're over here four years into the tenure of this GM/head coach combo, and we're still trying to settle on an offensive line. We get younger every year, and the lack of veteran leadership has manifested itself in stupid mental errors and lack of discipline. We have no identity on offense. We're in a transitional period on defense, with cornerstones in Woodson, Collins, and (hopefully) Clay Matthews, but we're still aways from having an elite level 3-4 defense.

I don't want to consider myself on the anti-anybody bandwagon. That would require wanting the team to fail in hopes that we replace the people in power. I earnestly hope Thompson finds the right people for the job, and McCarthy gets them to shape up and we make a run for the playoffs, but with the same problems week in and week out, I can't see us doing better than 3-5 down the stretch here.

That's the end of my rant. Now on to the game.

*Clay Matthews continues to shine. He's so quick off the line and should only get better under the tutelage of Kevin Greene. Look for him to be an elite LB for years to come. He made a play stuffing Chester Taylor for a loss of about a half yard, coming off the right end on a rushing play UP THE MIDDLE that was straight unbelievable.

*My player of the game on the Packers side today is Ryan Pickett. He was a man in the middle all day, rarely gave up the point of attack, and ate up draw plays with ease. Great day for Pickett.

*At the same time, goats of the game are Jolly (for obvious reasons) and Crosby. I don't care what someone says to you. Know the game situation, and keep your head. It's inexcusable to make that bad of an error at that point in such a big game. That play dictated the momentum of the entire first half. We pay Crosby to make kicks. Whether you want to fault McCarthy on this one or not, when we send Crosby out, he is expected to make a kick. He killed our last gasp at a rally by pushing that one to the right. Also, I believe he erroneously kicked the ball deep (as opposed to a squib) on Harvin's big return in the third quarter to stop our momentum, according to McCarthy's presser.

*Tough call on Rodgers today. He looked lost in the first half, was largely ineffective and held on to the ball way too long resulting in two coverage sacks. I was proud of how he handled himself in the second half though, pulling it together and playing like a man possessed, displaying poise, accuracy and toughness even while taking a beating. The guy puts up 100+ QB ratings like it's his job.

*He needs more carries to prove it one way or the other, but I'm convinced Ryan Grant just isn't that good. He has no shake at all, and isn't big enough to truck guys like a Brandon Jacobs would. Just a mediocre NFL starter. We need to look into alternatives next year.

*Good to see Ahman back in uniform. He showed some strong running on the swing play to the left, and ran hard on kickoff returns. It'll be nice to have him back there for these last eight games. Seeing him on kickoff returns reminded me of the days of Davenport back there running with a head of steam, never breaking one but getting to the 30-35 routinely.

*Nice to see Jennings getting back in the swing of things. He put some good moves on guys in the open field today and made one heck of a catch on that TD.

*I'll happily eat crow on our decision to keep 3 FBs. Quinn Johnson will become a bulldozer by next season. Hall is a special teams demon, and Kuhn is not a half bad ball carrier and receiver.

*Big shout out to Spencer Havner on a second great performance. Got to love a guy like that.

*Special teams play needs to be fixed. Our coverage units have far too many lapses, and Harvin was a major difference maker in the game today. Given that we cut guys like Anthony Smith and Ruvell Martin to keep guys like Swain and Derrick Martin for their special teams value, we're really poor in those areas.

*Not sure what Capers' deal was today. We got marginally more pressure on Favre than last time, but not enough to make a difference. He didn't seem to learn his lesson. On 3rd and 17, we rush three, and Favre calmly delivers a strike over the middle for 19. Then, with the game on the line, he brings the house and leaves all passing lanes wide open. Outdueled today.

*Hawk has been completely phased out of the game plan, and when he's in there, he isn't doing anything to warrant more playing time. He blew the coverage on the play action TD on the goal line to the Vikes back up TE.

*Offensive line was hot and cold. I remember a few instances where Wells, Lang, and/or Barbre got flat out run over or blocked the wrong guy, allowing people in untouched. Colledge is the only one who has been pretty solid all year. May be in need of an overhaul here with some quality veteran experience.

*Plays of the game: Jennings TD catch.
Goal line stand.


The goal from here on out needs to be to get better every week, and not just talk about getting better, but show it on Sundays. From preparation to performance, everything needs to improve from the top down. Personally speaking, my goal has shifted from a division championship to playing hard for a win every week and chasing the wild card. I don't think we have it in us to catch the Vikes, given the state of our team and our remaining schedule, but I'll keep the faith.

If we don't show serious improvement in our lacking areas over the next four weeks (and ultimately, the next eight) I will have major questions about the leadership of this team going forward. We needed a signature win today in the world possible way today, and we weren't able to get it. But Pittsburgh and Baltimore are still looming, as well as a handful of other pretty good games for us to prove ourselves. There's been better days to be a Packer fan, but we'll always keep hope alive.

On to Tampa.

Amen to everything you said. I've been saying the same things tonight. THIS TEAM IS STUCK IN NEUTRAL! WE NEVER GET BETTER WEEK TO WEEK! I'm officially on the anti-MM bandwagon.

Good post. We need to beat Dallas or we don't make the playoffs.

It’s clear that McCarthy did not have his team ready to play Sunday. Instead of a fired up team with a new game plan to beat the hated Favre lead Vikings, MM decide to stick to what looked like his same game plan he had in the first Vikings game. Add that to a team clearly not in the game early on and you have a team destined to fail.

I think his biggest fault as a coach is his stubborn personality who will never admit a mistake, and I've had enough of his bad offensive play calling let your offensive cordinator call the plays and you coach your team McCarthy. I'd like to see him gone at the end of the year he has more then enough time to build his team. Unfortunately I see him winning just enough games to stay as the head coach for another year.

I know what some people are going to say that the Vikings are a pretty good football team. Well maybe they are but shouldn't the Packers be a good team by now?

And yes Clay Matthews does look to be a great player in the making.

I got to work this morning thinking, "I'm eager to read BFavre4MVP's Post game impressions thread." It's always good at summing up what happened and I like to hear from the rest of the board as to what their thoughts are as well.

I get here and I see only 3 replies.


Yikes. Clearly, there's not much new to talk about is there? Same problems week after week. Penalties, anemic running game, poor blocking, Crosby misses a field goal... you name it, we've seen it before -- in spades.

I'm not sure what to think at this point. We've got a lot of pieces. Good pieces. Rodgers, Matthews, Collins, etc. But I thought Michael Strahan put it well on the post game show. The Vikings are a team that just know what needs to be done. You can sense it. Guys know their jobs. What routes to run, how far away the first down marker is, their gaps to hold, etc. They're very disciplined. I don't know if it's Childress, Favre, or simply the fact that it's more of a veteran team than the Packers. Not sure.

But it's evident the Packers aren't in the same league. All those, "pieces" we have are going for naught because of a number of reasons. Coaching for one. Talent around those pieces for another. It's certainly not an easy fix, that's for sure.

Do we really want to make the playoffs, only to lose to a good team? The Packers aren't going anywhere this year. They are 4-3 and have made the same damn mistakes 7 games now. Things will not change. Hopefully they change after the season with MM & TT gone. 5 years now and this team still looks completely lost. Can't wait til next year!

Yes, I want to make the play-offs and I will root for the Packers to win each week. If at the end of the season that doesn't happen, THEN I will decide if I want changes to be made.

I'll reserve my judgment on Michael J. McCarthy until the season's over.

The ship may be taking on a little bit of water right now, but you've still got 9 games, and the ship can still be saved. No use in turning against the Captain when he's the one we have to trust to save this ship.

Don't you think the playoff experience would be of MAJOR value to the young players on this team, especially AR?

Favre's winning TD versus the Lions in 94 had as much to do with winning the Super Bowl 3 years later as anything they did........experience = priceless

'Fans' who cheer against their own team because they want someone fired or better draft picks aren't real fans...

Agreed, which is why I want to avoid being on the anti-Thompson or anti-McCarthy bandwagon as long as I can. They'll get every opportunity to right ship in my eyes.

But there's some fundamental problems here. It's no secret that Ted loves the draft, and shies away from free agency. He's a forward thinker, and I've heard multiple interviews with people who have worked with him that he is always looking five years down the road. In some ways, that's admirable. In others, it's frightening. You need a target. We can't spend '05 cleaning house and looking forward to '08/'09 only to still be a work in progress at that point because you clean house EVERY year to make room for guys four or five years down the road. I'm not recommending being short sighted. That doesn't work either, and usually creates more long term problems.

But we now have the youngest team in the league AGAIN. We make mistakes on a weekly basis that veterans don't make, just because we're young and wet behind the ears. The problem is, how do all these guys progress into capable, smart playing veterans when they don't have capable, smart veterans to show them what to do? Sure, a great deal comes from coaching, but there's something to be said for internal coaching in the locker room. There's none of that on this team. Not a single player went over and chewed Jolly out after his awful play yesterday, and no one did anything after his remorseless post game comments about completely destroying this team's momentum. Can you imagine someone doing that in a locker room with Reggie White, LeRoy Butler, Wayne Simmons, etc.?

That wouldn't go over well. I have no idea how this team will mature, and I don't know that I'm sold on the guy stocking the train or the guy conducting it, but for better or worse, it has left the station. I hate feeling that way though. I'm just going to hope like hell that something finally clicks and these guys learn to collectively play with the energy, maturity and urgency that should embody a veteran team. After all, at the current time, we're in the process of wasting two of the better quarterbacking seasons I've ever seen for an average or below average team. Having Rodgers here gives us a shot for a decade. Now the rest of these guys need to grow and figure it out.

My sights are now set on the wild card, and this team finding its identity at the right time to make noise. If we peak over the last five games, there's no reason to think we can't be last year's Cardinals, or even the '07 Giants. Now I'm not crowning us in any way. I'd be lying if I said I had any confidence in this turnaround happening so abruptly. But the ability is there, and talented teams that haven't matured yet are incredibly dangerous. Hopefully we reach that potential.

I will cheer for the packers to win every game from here on out and genuinely hope they do I just don't think that MM is a good enough coach to win 5 of the next 9, with games against Cowboys, Pitt, Baltimore, San Francisco and Bears coming up.

No matter the outcome of the season unless the play calling gets better and the penalties start getting reduced I still don't think that MM is the coach of the future for this team.

Especially with guys like Coher, Homgren, and Shanahan (whom I would think would be great to bring in, considering his work with the zone running scheme and success with offense).

Right now I am willing to give the defensive staff some room they just got here, but McCarthy has been working this qb and offense for 3 years and its time to crap or get off the pot. As it is right now i was more impressed with the play of the d overall more so than the offense, they are consistently getting better and did make a couple of plays and key stops in the first and second halves.

To me more of the plays on offense were made in the second half after the play had already broken down and Rogers and company were scrambling making things happen out of sheer athleticism and moxie, not because of efficient play calling or execution.

I like the Navy analogy but MM has referred to locomotives in past pressers so maybe a train/conductor analogy would have worked better. Overall, very nice.

BTW. I'm going to wait as well. Let's see how the season shapes up and go from there. I haven't been really happy lately with the coaching or TT but understand that each season is unique and I'm willing to see it through.

Looking at the schedules, I really do not think that Minny will falter, especially since Favre will have only one game in cold weather down the stretch. I would predict that Minny finishes at 12-4, maybe even 13-3. They will take the division in all likliehood.

Looking at GB and their schedule, they could end up at 8-8 or maybe 9-7. A lot depends on how they react to this takedown mentally.

But even at 9-7 I think it will be hard to make the playoffs. Especially if Dallas beats GB. If that happens then I think the wild card teams will be Dallas and Atlanta.

The Dallas game is a big one.

Realistically, we need to go 3-1 the next 4 weeks @TB, DAL, SF and @DET. If we lose to Dallas we're going to be in a tough spot for making the playoffs. I'm guessing 3-1, which puts us at 7-4

Then it's BAL, @CHI, @PIT. That's going to be a rough stretch vs some extremely physical teams. Lets face it, the more physical teams have manhandled us so far this season. I'm hoping we can win one of these games, which puts us at 8-6.

Then we've got must wins with SEA, @ARI

10-6 might be enough to get us in the playoffs, maybe not. Will be an interesting off-season if we don't go at least 9-7.

You're right, it's the proverbial broken record. I've started to wonder if that isn't a hologram of McCarthy at the post-game media conference, like those old Soviet leaders who kept appearing in public long after they had been transported to deepest Kamchatka.

Other reasons for the lack of replies might be:
— The OP from BF4MVP (hey, you may be interested in a name change!) is so level-headed and comprehensive, there isn't really anything to add. If it's replies he wanted, he'd just write "This team will finish 5-11 because TT sucks" and wait for the deluge.
— There are at least two other weekly post-game threads, which usually go up quicker and attract a lot of the discussion.
— Speaking for myself only, I couldn't bring myself to write a word about the Minny game until the frustration had passed. My mind was a mix of despair, disappointment and nausea that gives itself more easily to charcoals or atonal shouting than reasoned debate. But it's OK now. My neighbors will get some sleep tonight.

PS Agree with BF4MVP's second post, too — although I think we're more like last years Eagles than Cards.

Yea, I'm surprised that more hasn't been made of this. It's one thing to lose your head on the field and do something stupid. To not see after it's done that it was a stupid thing to do is scary. This is exactly what you get when the coach tolerates "combative" penalties. In Jolly's mind, what he did falls into that category. I'm sure MM disagrees, but that's irrelevant. As long as MM keeps sending the message the penalties of an aggressive nature are an acceptable part of the game, this is exactly the kind of stupid play we'll continue to see.

Not if we'd get killed. Besides, did the playoffs of the 13-3 year help this team one bit? NOT AT ALL.

And I am not cheering against my team. Never would I do that. It's just this team isn't good enough to win a playoff game.

I disagree. Making the playoffs would be a big plus for this team regardless of what happened from there.

In my mind, making the playoffs means this team goes at least 10-6. I see three cupcakes on our remaining schedule with @TB, @DET, SEA. That means we need three additional wins from DAL, SF, BAL, @CHI, @PIT, @ARI.

If we go 3-0 vs the cupcakes, and 3-3 vs the rest to make the playoffs, that is a step in the right direction for this team. Some of those games will have been "must-win" games that the team actually won. That is a good thing for this team any way you look at it.

Making the playoffs is always a good thing - regardless of the outcome.

1. You can not win or get better sitting in front of the TV watching other teams play.
2. Getting a taste of the playoffs usually makes young players hungry.
3. It also gives them an experience of what it takes to prepare for such a high intensity game.

in '07 the Packers did NOT get killed in the playoffs. Instead they won a big game against Seattle and battled the Giants to overtime in horrible conditions in the NFC Championship game.

Are you seriously saying that not making the playoffs in '07 would have been better?

Yes. I think you always want to make the playoffs. It's still good experience and a chance.

This team lacks veteran leadership for a coach like MM. There are way too many young players that don't seem to get it and could benefit from the likes of a Reggie White. When Jolly pulled that dumb stunt there wasn't anyone there to let him know he was wrong. He still doesn't appologize.

Especially with TT's early draft picks.....Ha!

Seriously, who wouldn't want to make the post-season?

Does anyone watch football here outside of the Packers?

Remember a little story about Arizona last year?

Or what about when Pittsburgh rode the 6th seed all the way to Detroit?

You get in, anything can happen. Rooting against your team to not make the playoffs so people get fired is absurd, and your LUCKY I don't rip your fandom away from you.

I'm licensed folks, don't make me show you the badge.

I flat out disagree. I say we're very much in the same league as the Vikings. I've made my arguments in Bruce's longer thread on the post mortem, so I won't repeat them here.


I agree with you and I wish we could see more of such sensibility on game day.

Whatever one thinks of the coaching or front office management, it's pointless to talk about them staying or going now as if they might not have the rest of the season. Whether one likes it or not, they DO have the rest of the season, so we all might as well reserve judgement.

Meanwhile, I feel very much like BFavre4MVP-who-should-change-his-name when he says, "I'm just going to hope like hell that something finally clicks and these guys learn to collectively play with the energy, maturity and urgency that should embody a veteran team." My sentiments exactly - and like you, Coco, I'll be rooting for them every week, hopefully all the way to the super bowl. However unlikely that may appear at present.


I have to say, I agree with every single thing you say here. Very well said indeed. And I will only add that I can't understand how you can write such marvelous posts when you put your mind to it and turn around on game day and produce some of those. Is it emotion? Drink? Both? Whatever the case, kudos for this post AND for your post game impressions, which also impressed me. For whatever that all is worth - after all, I'm no art critic.

Terry, I have been posting with BF4MVP for a LOOOOONG time now and on 3 different boards. IIRC when he started posting back on ESPN he was 14 or 15 years old. In ALL honesty his posts and threads even back then were 5 out of 5 stars.

He keeps his head on straight and calls it like it is.

This argument went on last year, after about ten games.

I said at the time, I did not think we would make the playoffs, we did not deserve it, and if we did we would be out after the first round. So it could be counter productive. Why?

Because it would give management a false sense of achievement. Which would delay the serious changes that needed to be made.

Well, as I predicted, we did not make the playoffs. Changes were made. The team is better.

Would that have happened if we were in the playoffs? Maybe, but I doubt it.

How are we better? We have the same record this year in week 7 that we did last year in week 7.

And it doesnt look to be getting any easier to win games.

We have to play winless Tampa next week. Thats not a gimmie by any means.

The team is better.

We will not finish 6-10. I am predicting 8-8 or 9-7. (If AR stays healthy. If not, forget it.)

And after the season, the defense will be statistically better.

Plus, we have two new players I think will be good, Mathews and Raji.

That is about it as far as I can see. But its there.

Ill wait and see till the end of the year but a two or three game swing upwards doesnt make this team better. We have SERIOUS problems.

I am saying 7-9 (I predicted 13-3 before the season started- fool me once...)

Sun., Nov. 8 @ Tampa Bay Buccaneers Probably
Sun., Nov. 15 Dallas Cowboys Maybe
Sun., Nov. 22 San Francisco 49ers Doubtful
Thurs., Nov. 26 @ Detroit Lions (Thanksgiving) Probably
Mon., Dec. 7 Baltimore Ravens Doubtful
Sun., Dec. 13 @ Chicago Bears Maybe
Sun., Dec. 20 @ Pittsburgh Steelers Doubtful
Sun., Dec. 27 Seattle Seahawks Maybe
Sun., Jan. 3 @ Arizona Cardinals Doubtful

I think the team is better too and Gregg has a point about playoffs. I think McCarthy would have liked to have made the defensive changes a year earlier, but it's politically impossible after that sort of winning season. If we make the playoffs last year and especially if we win the wildcard game, those massive changes would very possibly have been impossible.

Also, as a general addition to the whole thing, apropos of nothing in particular, just as the delay to get to the big one while Brett was still with the team for all those years was a concern for many fans, I think Woodson's limited remaining time is a concern for the same reasons. Man, it would sure be good to get to the big dance while he's still with the team.

I hope all the pessimists are willing to come back and acknowledge it if the team ends up 10-6 or better. I won't hold my breath, though.