From day one I have been a MM supporter.
There are two areas that he seems absolutely unable or unconcerned with.

Penalties are an issue. They take pts off the board, keep teams that otherwise shouldnt be in the game in it and they force us into long yardage situations that increase our chance for INT's and sacks.

We had 8 penalties in the 1st qtr and a half and 4 sacks. 12 negative plays!!!! In one half!!!

The second is our offensive line. We have the players IMO. Our scheme and coaching is inept. Somebody might tell me that Campen and Philben are good but at this point I dont care. If you are a good Oline coach your guys dont come off the bye and let DT's run untouched to the QB. If your a good OC the Head Coach doesnt have to call the plays.

I am growing tired of these two problems and lay them directly at the feet of MM.

Penalties and mistakes wont ever change under McCarthy. Its been 4 years now, it aint gonna stop now.

I think the zebras are also out of control this year -- I was actually thinking that last week when I was watching all the other games (that I didn't really care about).

The league needs to get control of this, who wants to watch games where every other play results in a flag?

Can I add playcalling to the list? Score is 14-0 after one quarter. You're playing the Lions without their best offensive player, starting QB (and then backup) and half the defensive line. Your QB has been sacked 20 times in four games.

Through three quarters: 14 runs, 41 dropbacks (36 atts, 5 sacks).

WTF?

If those are not the ideal circumstances to run the football, I don't know what are.

(NB Grant did get some carries in the fourth quarter and, whaddayouknow, it was quite effective.)

Say what you will about the refs but I checked NFL.com at half and the Pack had 8 penalties. THen next closest team had 3. Most had 1 or 2. Completely disporportionate.

And what that Tells me is the Zebras know that the Packers tendancies and tend to come into the game thinking..hey this team is one of the most penalized... so they are already thinking that.... it is PERCEPTION... and then it takes a life of its own....Just like 2 weeks ago....But the Queens hardly got a flag....so come on....

I think even when the Packers do clean it up...they will still get some bad calls....PERCEPTION...

I get what your saying but pretty hard to blame Clifton's false start penalties, face masking, etc. They are clear obvious penalties. They are undisciplined.

Yes, Grant was effective in the 4th quarter, when the Packers were trying to run out the clock. Big deal. Does that mean that Grant and the OL would have been effective when the game was relatively close? I think its becoming obvious that the passing game is going to win or lose games for the Packers. If they have a large lead, they can let the runners stack up some stats. Otherwise, the running game is pretty inconsequential.

True, Grant might have been more successful early- but frankly, I doubt it. The OL is still trying to find itself (note the transition from Clifton to Lang, and from Tauscher to Barbre). To expect too much from this OL at this point is simply premature.

All that typed, I will agree, Grant is not the answer in the Packers backfield. I would really like them to get Stephen Jackson from St. Louis, but that is just a dream. So what is the answer? I don't know.

Wont Argue that one...But the one on Driver and Colledge ....hmmmmmm I mean they could go either way...but with the perception those will be flagged....

They are undisciplined, and I believe they are also a mentally weak team. They don't have the mental strength to 1) Correct the mistakes 2) Handle the good to elite teams in this league. Boy, with each penalty today the crowd (I was at the game) groaned and became a lil more venomous towards McCarthy, at least where I was sitting. I'm sure we'll get the coach talk after the game like we always do but MM is heading toward Sherman territory with me.

Yeah that may be true, but in my experience the only way to change peoples perspectives is to prove them wrong. In this case the Pack may draw a few unwarranted penalties for a while if/when they clean up their act, however it wouldn't take long for the refs to change their perspective on the team and give the players the benefit of the doubt more often than not. Only the Packers can change peoples perspectives. No one else can do it for them.

I have to say I thought we played better when TJ was in the game.

Go Pack!!

It was really bad today and if a player is not disciplined enough to follow the rules of the game, why should I think he's disciplined enough to do his assignment properly, use proper technique, etc. etc. etc.? We, the fans, see the penalities, but I have to believe we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg in the general bone-headedness of this team.

MM?

No no no....it's TT's fault for all the penalties.

LOL I watched the 4th quarter in the local sports pub and the 3 oclock game. The entire 3 hours after the noon game was a debate over Favre/Thompson. It's not just here. I offered no opinion on the debate bye the way. Baby steps

It was mostly garbage time though.

I'm OK for giving Lang a chance, and I think Clifton's probably done, but the problems are going to fester all season long, whoever the left tackle is.

The main advantage of putting Lang in there is that we'll know if he can cut it or not for the future. Give ourselves a chance to have a better line next year. (How long have we been wishing for that?)

Of course if he proves to be out of his depth it may ruin his career and deprive the Packers of a future starter at guard.

The GM and coaches really messed up on this one.

Grant didn't get the rock more because he couldn't get any yardage. The Lions were stacking the box with 8 or 9 guys for the entire first half. It was only in the second half that they went to more of a cover 2, which opened up some running room for Grant late in the game.

Grant sucks and can't run. That's why he's not getting the ball.

Now as for why he's still the starting back and we haven't made an effort to bring a proven runner in? Only Thompson and McCarthy could answer that.

I think these penalties and the revolving door on the offensive line may actually put McCarthy on a bit of a hotseat. It's my opinion that he's holding Capers back as well. I'm not particularly high on McCarthy right now.

Well, could be worse. We could have Orlando Pace kill a game-winning/tying drive on the 4 yard line with an off-sides penalty AFTER a timeout

I haven't gone back and re-watched the game but I would bet a big reason for the lack of runs after the 14 pt lead were the penalties. It's hard to have a balanced attack when you are constantly starting at 1st & 20.

I agree that the Packers are more built to be a passing team. Our QB and WRs are much better than our RBs. But at some point it gets a bit rediculous. 1st and goal at the 3 yard line up 26-0 more than halfway through the 3rd quarter, and they're dialing up pass? He got sacked, fumbled and lost the ball. At some point you gotta give your RB a chance to get 3 yards in 3 plays. Or least 2 plays, especially when you're already up 26 points. Worse case scenario, you burn some clock and get a FG. If that's a passing situation, you've got big, big problems.

Part of the reason they called for a pass is that AR's on fire -- his QB rating has only been under 100 once this season.

Of course, 20/20 hindsight I'd like to have seen a run, but in a game where your QB is completing 78% of his passes it's reasonable to put the ball in his hands when you get to the end zone.

Yeah, that was classic. Made even worse by him almost doing a face-plant trying to stop his momentum. It's a looong walk back to the huddle... Between him, Clifton and Driver - that's a lot of collective experience making some poor mistakes on Sunday.

I'm struggling with this one. On one hand I want to blame McCarthy for all of the penalties under his leadership ... on the other hand I see many of the mistakes being made by the most veteran members of he team...Clifton, Driver, Woodson... Those shouldn't be blamed on McCarthy. Regardless of who is coaching, Clifton should understand his position well enough by now to know where to line up

In a close game, I can see your point. But up 26 points and your QB having spent the better part of the season on his back, I'd see that as an opportunity to see if you can't pound it in with your RBs and save him a bit of a beating. I'm less upset about the turnover than I am he had to take another unneccesary hit.

Through three quarters, the Packers had only been penalized twice on 1st-and-10, both times for five yards. (They were also penalized once on 1st-and-15, thus incurring two flags without getting a play off.)

So there must be another reason why McCarthy didn't want to try running the football.

We couldn't get the running game started in 07' until midseason, but hardly anyone complained because we compensated by implementing varied passing schemes with multiple receivers. The passes were inside, outside, deep, underneath: you never knew what would happen. When the run game did warm up, GB became the team that missed the Superbowl by one play. It seems to me that the Pack were heavily penalized then, but I'll have to fact check. Which brings us to the present. Everyone keeps referring to Grants' "2007 form". He really didn't have much form until later in the season. Can this be attributed to his play or poor blocking? On another post, someone drew the comparison that the Pack had pretty much the same O-line in 07' as now, and was plagued with similar injuries, etc. I can't help but wonder if all this may be an indicator that the zone blocking scheme is a bust, or may require too much time to get "in sync" due to being too complicated. So many defenses disguise their looks now, it may cause confusion on the line in regards to who covers who, making missed assignments, holding calls, pre-snap penalties symptoms of a greater illness.

Grant didn't become the starter until midseason. He was still a NY Giant in September.



The Packers are running a lot less zone this year than in 2007 or 2008. The opposite is arguable too: that Grant had his best half-season in the purest ZBS that the Packers have run. In the end, it comes down to this: Grant hasn't been the same since he held out, got hurt, and received a large paycheck in the 2007-08 offseason. He isn't helped by a line whose best players are aging (and were better pass blockers than run blockers even in their prime), whose youngsters aren't living up to expectations, and on which the depth is negligible; nor by a coach whose playcalling is unimaginative and shows a lack of confidence in his run offense.

from GBPG
Last year, only the Dallas Cowboys committed more penalties than the Green Bay Packers, and no team gave away more yards via penalties than the Packers.


Think that was bad?

This year, they might be worse.

Through five games, they’re on pace to commit more penalties for more yards than they did in 2008, when they were flagged 110 times for 984 yards. With 43 penalties already in 2009 — and 359 penalty yards — the Packers are on pace for 138 penalties and 1,149 yards. That would go down as a franchise record in both categories, something that would be a dubious mark on coach Mike McCarthy’s record.

In 2007, we were the 4th most penalized team. It seems we get worse every year, despite some of our "younger" players gaining experience.

Yeah, but I would think this is the strength of the ZBS. You are supposed to block an area (thus the 'zone' in ZBS) and not a specific man. Maybe I'm way off, but I think that's the way it is supposed to work.

According to McGinn, Detroit (in my view, inexplicably) stacked the box against the Packers in the 1st half, thus the plethora of passing. You take what the defense gives you, generally. I don't understand why we have to go looking at other ulterior explanations. I think its plain to see what everyone seems to agree about Grant--he goes down on initial contact too often. But, I saw a couple nice cuts from him in the backfield yesterday that led to some decent runs and he always finishes well. He has some nice upside.

I just noticed this was the PENALTIES thread, that morphed into a Grant discussion. Sorry about the OT post, then: penalties suck, and I thought both the late hits were called a little too tight.

At least they can be number 1 at something.

I have a general principle I apply to penalty yards.

Every 100 yards penalized is worth 7 points

Every 70 yards penalized is worth 3 points.

The formula should be fairly obvious.

I understand there are times when this doesn't happen, like Sunday with 130 penalty yards and 0 points.

And.

I realized there can be many holes found in my application of this, but if some stat person could figure a way to do the math, I'd be willing to bet it would be closer than one might think.

I would say that you are right on or maybe a little conservative. Your sentence above referring to zero pts, actually is incorrect. Penalties turned a kickoff return for a TD into zero (or did we score on that drive) and we had acouple trips into the Red Zone and had to settle for FG's due to penalties. Anyway, you get the idea. Offensive penalties turn TD's into FG's and FG's into punts. So while the Lions scored 0 we took pts away from ourselves.

Wow, that really surprises me. It sure seemed like a lot more but I guess that's why you go back and take another look. Anyway, thanks for the info.

Exactly! These guys have been playing football since they got out of diapers. I'm sure the coach harps on this constantly. What more can MM do? Maybe we should bring in officials to practice like they did in TC...

Right. And Nick Barnett knows he can't grab a facemask. You can go on and on. Hey, it's on MM- the buck stops there. But he has always emphasized penalties, for whatever reason they still commit too many. It's not like it's the young guys are the only ones doing it, in fact most of them have been from veterans.

IMO it comes down to disipline. That is true in any level of football. And disipline starts with the HC Is this team to tight? Is it thinking too much instead of playing by instinct? Again this comes down to coaching IMO

It's funny, I used to coach Pop Warner, Jr High, and HS football. Even the 9 year olds in Pop Warner rarely had a dead ball penalty. They understood the "3" concept we drilled into them. 1) Get to your position and make sure you're lined right. 2) Repeat the count in your mind 3) Focus on which way you're going to block. And I think we averaged 2 false start/illegal formation penalties A YEAR.

That's why I just don't get it. Aggressive penalties I can see, but these illegal formation, illegal procedure, false starts... how does that happen!??!

This is now a Poll question on the front page.

I would argue that it more often starts with strong veteran leadership, although seeing Clifton blow it time and again made me wonder about that assessment.

If I were on a team with Ray Lewis, I'd be careful not to line up wrong....

Actually theres an article on JSOnline about this very issue:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/65706132.html