http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4558542


Good to see the Viking's annual disintegration is right on schedule.

With the speed of our legal system, Pat Williams may well be retired by the time this gets sorted out.

Whatever gets him out of the NFL is fine with me.

For all you foreign members, this is a perfect case to study the American legal system. Or lack there of.

Hell, why not jut put him into pre-emptive detention. That seems to speed up the legal system these days.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Amdf...p&type=lgns

Court date set for March 8.

Important to remember that we are governed by a system that would rather let 10 guilty men go free than to imprison one innocent man. Is there a lot of waste in this system, absolutely, but the alternative could be many times worse. We already see a ton of waste in millions of dollars annually paid to unjustly imprisoned persons, rushing this process could cost a lot more in the long run.

They should be tried in a military court as enemy combatants, after all they do play for the Viqueens!

My memory is a little foggy here. Did the 2 players use a substance that is illegal or just one that is banned by a private sports organization?

The substance they took can mask steroid use, so only banned by the NFL, I believe.

They played because it was tried in a State court. The NFL wants it moved to a Federal court- this is a good thing if people actually want justice to be served. The State court was partial to them.

If these players broke a rule of a private organization but not any laws what is the legal system doing getting involved in this in the first place?

The law can get involved because it has to do with workers rights, contracts, and it affects commerce. To affect commerce it only has to threaten it.

It is still in state court.

This really should be in federal court because otherwise, all the teams would be subject to different rules . . . potential nightmare.

If the court rules in the player’s favor, is there anything that would prevent the commissioner from penalizing the Vikings by taking away draft choices? If I were the commissioner, I would hit them hard . . . essentially saying “go ahead play players that get around the rules”

In the case of draft choices, employment law would no longer be an issue.

That is why I said the NFL wants it moved to Federal court.

An employee does something that is against company policy and the employER attempts to do what the employee's union agreed the boss can do should an employee break the rules but the employee goes to court to stop it? I am missing something here?

Your right, they do not belong there. My opinion is government's intrusion into areas where it really does not belong began as part of the New Deal. This is kind of a combination of politics and law so I will leave it at that. I am not condoning it, but ultimately government is a reflection of everyone that votes. So, if you disagree read up and vote accordingly.

That said, I expect this type of behavior out of the Vikings. NFL teams have almost quit policing themselves and it is a shame.

[quote name='Pugger' date='Feb 21 2010, 07:41 AM' post='297138']
An employee does something that is against company policy and the employER attempts to do what the employee's union agreed the boss can do should an employee break the rules but the employee goes to court to stop it? I am missing something here?

The williamses (employees) took a substance banned by their employer. the NFL (employer) suspended the williamses for taking the substance. then the players appealed, which players often do, because, even if they KNOW theyre guilty, it buys them a couple more weeks of playing time before the suspension takes effect. during their appeal, a MN judge declared that the suspension was unlawful because of some old MN law that makes it illegal for persons working in MN to be suspended by an employer due to the results of only 1 drug test. so now the legal battle is less over the williamses and more about the nfl trying to say that because of the CBA and the contracts that the players sign, they should be able to be held responsible. there is currently a precedent being set for a double standard that would allow the vikings to ingest whatever they want because the NFL cant suspend them for it

Thought we already had our lessons with President Clinton and Whitewater and Monica cases.............................

President Clinton "Well it depends on what your definition of "IF" is...."

It only has gotten worse from there................

Anyways, Yeah by the time Williams might get suspended; he might be retired. Maybe that's why he's leaning on retiring ? j/k

Really, think that whole case is a witch hunt myself and a waste of money and time. Don't really think it is about the substance; but probably to set a precedent for something else much bigger they are planning for in the future.

Not trying to defend the Williams boys - I think they are guilty of steriod use and used the ban substance to cover up their steriod use - but the Federal courts have sided with the State of Minnesota on this issue.

Minnesota state law is more protective of individual rights with their workman's compensation laws and rights of individuals to be afforded due process in rules regarding drug testing and the ability of employers to suspend or withhold compensation when that legally defined process is not followed. The Minnesota Vikings are the Williams employers and they are subject to Minnesota State Law.

There has to be cause for the Feds to take jurisdiction and overturn State laws -- this is constitutional process. One can not pick and choose when they want to follow the Constitution. As Packer fans we may want the Williams boys suspended, but I doubt that any of us want to advocate for the abolition of due process and Constitutional law to achieve that ends.

+1

Do any of you know what the MN state law says regarding this issue? What legally defined process was not followed?

That is what will be determined in the upcoming hearings in State Court. The opinions put forth that have to this point banned the league from suspending the Williams boys are easily available through an online searcj but is more than I care to try to write in the few minutes that I have here this morning.

The NFL has already lost in its federal appeals in a unanimous three-judge ruling from the U.S. Court of Appeals in St. Louis. They also lost the "en banc" appeal to the larger full 11 of the appeals court judges to look at the situation and determine whether the first three were correct in their decision. This appeal was also denied.

As far as further Federal appeal it could only come through the Supreme Court, which has less than a snowballs chance in hell of picking up this case. The NFL knowing this has no intention of even wasting its money on this fruitless hail mary legal attempt and has instead asked for Congressional intervention. Even if Congress backs the NFL it will not affect the Williamses - rather future cases.

The NFL's only real prayer is to win its case in Minnesota Court if it ever hopes to enforce these suspensions and fines.

Am I missing something, but why can't the NFL just suspend them for 4 away games???? Minnesota laws have no jurisdiction in Wisconsin or any other state. This would probably be more disruptive to the team then a straight 4 game suspension..

Because they are employees of the MINNESOTA Vikings - a MN based employer. The Judge (State) in this case issued an injunction against the team and the league in enforcing any such suspension - the injunction was upheld in Federal court upon appeal.

This will have to go through the MN legal process and the chances of success are shaky at best.

It is interesting that this case now hinges more on how the tests were done, how they were reported/leaked and how the suspensions were handed out

It does not seem to focus too much on the concept of whether or not they cheated, just how they were treated once they tested positive. There is no way the NFL could manage each state's idiosyncratic employment laws and drug testing laws- it has to be a collective and binding agreement that supersedes individual state rules.

I don't blame the vikes players for pursuing every avenue to save their hides, but it is disappointing from a sportsmanship and fairness point of view.

Others have already served their sentences for the same offense and it makes no sense to grant the vikes special privileges that the rest of the NFL players who live outside MN do not enjoy.

None of that matters to a Minnesota judge, so it doesn't look promising for the NFL to "win" in that venue.

Thanks for the knowledge. Can you explain to a dullard like myself what recourse the NFL has then in enforcing their drug rules? They can't really say teams in "these states" will be suspended for testing positive but not in "these other states". In other words, if it doesn't go their way is the NFL completely screwed?

It just means there is going to be a whole new level of complexity to a new CBA agreement if the NFL loses this case as they would have to either have individual laws pertaining to each state or the Union will have to agree to unified rules - which will mean a major concession in any agreement.

If they win it, it also means a whole new level of complexity as they will be treading in some very shallow waters as it relates to their antitrust agreement which the Union will be challenging next year.

Not that this post actually clarified anything you might have been hoping for.

Just how broad are the commissioner’s powers to act “In The Best Interest Of The Game”

Allowing the player’s to get around a union contract because of local laws would result in the contract being interpreted in 32 different ways. Therefore, if I were the commissioner, I would state the following.

“Although the league may not suspend the Williams’, the Vikings will be punished if they are allowed to play in any of the first four games of the season. Each game in which they play will result in the loss of a draft pick . . . starting with the loss of a 4th round pick for the first game . . . a 2nd round pick for the second game . . .etc.”

I like it!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AnZJ...p&type=lgns

Oh, boy, you all are gonna love this...

The Williams' knowingly violated their contracts by taking StarCaps. Apparently, the use of diuretics or other medications was specifically prohibited for the use of making weight, and thus getting their bonuses. Also, apparently, just judging from the quotes, neither Williams specifically asked the NFL, themselves, if it was OK to take StarCaps. Pat Williams, specifically, got the info from a trainer in Buffalo, and he looked at the ingredients. How hard would it have been to call up and ask the NFL directly, "Hey, is this legal?"

So, they violate their contracts and get pissed at the NFL when they get them for something extra? Oh, the irony.

And, is it just me, but the impression I have been getting was that the Williams were going to trial over the fact that the NFL shouldn't be able to suspend them for taking the substance, but all I see is how they are going to trial over if the NFL followed Minnesota labor law (And the only issue I've seen about that is whether the Williams' were informed within 3 days of testing positive.)