Obviously we all know GB offensive line, is well, offensive. Time for some potential solutions, instead of complaining. I gotta say, I would take Tausch on one leg right now, and why not take a flyer on Levi Jones. Clifton hopefully will be back. I am all for trading picks or players to get at least one guy who can help this year. Fact is TT has missed on these lineman. He has tried many times and just has not gotten players. Time to try another approach. I would say that Campen should go, but not sure that would do any good at this point.

Any other ideas?

Not really.

Wait, maybe we can convert a FB or LB to an LT.

Sarcasm, please don't shot me...

Give Woodson a shot at LT

One positive for the O-line is that there weren't many (any?) dome noise related pre-snap penalties.

No way the Packer staff makes any big changes. They HAVE to believe they can coach these guys up. Or they're done for.

Get a new GM.

Really? Tell me your kidding

Just FYI

In 2002 David Carr and the EXPANSION Houston Texans set the record for most sacks given up at 76.

The 2009 Green Bay Packers, after 4 games, have given up 20 sacks! That puts them on pace for 80 sacks!!!

We saw how that worked out for Carr....

Don't sweat it.

Its just pad level and fundamentals.

Lang seemed to show some ability. Put him in and move everyone else back where they're supposed to be until Clifton gets back (hopefully next game).

Well than we will be looking at a new GM and Coaching staff next year. So much for it only takes a couple years to rebuild a team. If the new GM insists on only building through the draft fire him before he starts.

With the help of running all plays to the right and blocking help from a TE and RB. I would have to say that Allan is well worth a 1st round pick. A boozer huh you don't play like that not being in top physical shape.

I would suggest TT try to find a "rebuilding team" that has a capable OT worth trading some draft picks for. I haven't did my homework yet on who, but it wouldn't take much to improve on what we currently have. I know it won't happen, though.

He may as well give it a try because if the line doesn't start playing better TT may not be around to use his draft picks in April.

The O-Line shuffle is a joke, and the ESPN pretty much laughed about it last night. Clifton goes down, so 3 players get moved to attempt to cover it: Colledge from LG to LT, Spitz from C to LG, Wells in at C. Wasn't this supposed to STOP in '09, after failing miserably (creating chaos, confusion, and hindering the development of Spitz and Colledge) in the past 2 years?

Lightning struck, again, with Colledge going out - enter a rookie, instead of Breno? If Giacomini is a 1 position player is he of much value using-up one of the 9 OL roster spots?

Time to make a trade and bring in an experienced Tackle, as this won't be Clifton's last trip to the sidelines this year. Question is, do you weaken the LB or WR corp. to get AR some help? I think it was Jaworski who made the comment last night (paraphrased) "put Kampman's hand back on the ground, he's a pro-bowl pass rusher". IF we're not going to use him that way, and regularly drop him into pass coverage I say trade Kampy for some OL help, as he won't want to come back in '10 as an OLB.

I hate to bring it up again because it's been talked about so much....but there is no excuse to not bring Tausch in at this point and work him out, at least see where he is at over the bye week. I never heard how his workout went with KC, but I don't believe they signed him.

KC not signing Tauscher should say something...imho of course.

I was stating that last night... if KC does not sign him....well.... well....

Rebuild the line. That's the only way it will get better. If we would need to rebuild the line, I would not be surprised if there was a new Coach & GM doing so, cuz clearly MM & TT have no idea what they are doing with the oline.

So don't bring him in and work him out just because KC didn't sign him? I guess I don't agree with that logic. I don't see what it could possibly hurt just to give it a try.

I read a quote from MM's postgame presser, he said that TJ Lang did an excellent job down the stretch after coming in and they didn't really use rb's or te's to help him very much. Honestly, I think the LT position went from a D- to a D+ after Lang replaced Colledge IMO. What that evens means, I don't know....


What difference do you all think it would make to come out of the bye week with Clifton, Jackson and Bigby back? Any? none?

There could be reasons other than how his workout went why he wasn't signed. Could have been a money issue, maybe one side didn't feel it was a good fit. Or you could be right and he just isn't ready. Who knows, but I still don't see why the Packers wouldn't give it a shot. Things couldn't get much worst at this point.

Who do you cut? A safety, at one of our thinnest positions? I guess the FA RT we just signed would be the most logical. hah that looks like 'fart'!!!

I agree, that would be most logical choice.

Jackson hasn't been much of a contributor since he was drafted, so not sure if his return helps at all. Bigby's return helps A LOT, but will it be for the remaining 12+ games, or will it be for 2 and then out for 3 or 4? Clifton has been on fumes for a couple of years, now, so his return helps, but can't be counted on. His knees don't allow for much practice time during the week, and not sure if he can even remain (consistently) in the line-up throughout '09.

All of those guys, healthy after the bye, will help. Crash-course Lang at LT, and see if he and Cliffy can hold-down the fort. Keep Colledge at LG, Spitz at C and work w/ th LT position (Cliffy, Lang, ??).

The line actually gave Rodgers time to throw the ball last night. He held the ball too long. I counted at least 4 sacks that were simply because he held onto it too long. Get rid of the ball kid. He's trying to force it too much. It's unrealistic to expect any offensive line to hold off the rush for longer than 4 seconds. He needs to get rid of the ball and stop looking to make the home-run play on each snap.

That said, Lang did seem to hold up pretty well at LT, and Josh Sitton/Allen Barbre played well on that right side of the line. Almost all of the pressure came from the blindside. I'd like to see more T.J. Lang out there so we can find out if he has a future at the position before investing in a top prospect. Anybody know how serious Colledge's injury was?

Actually, I think Jackson could be a contributor. But then, maybe I'm prejudiced because I still think the Packers released the wrong running back.

While I think Lang did a fine job, he also came into the game late. At that point, Allen was pretty gassed and yet he still got a sack....When you have such a pitiful measuring stick, it's hard to gauge who is doing better...However, Lang looked more comfortable in some situations, which is encouraging.

As everyone is saying, the OL mess has gone on far too long and TT needs to make some hardline decisions. This is not a THIS YEAR problem, it's been a weakness for TT's entire tenure. How he can sit back and have our franchise QB get hit 20 times in four games and not do anything is unacceptable. Favre should be thanking TT for setting him free with this OL disaster.

Yes, Rodgers does tend to hold on to the ball, however, the line simply does not give him the time or space to make down field reads. We need our line to do two things, protect the QB and open up holes for the RB.....which of these are we currently doing effectly right now? It's scary...

TT and MM made their roster and this is what it is. Unless they go back to the drawing board THIS WEEK and directly address this issue, the Packers will be lucky to finish the year with Matt Flynn, let alone AR.

James Campen needs to be fired....

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but how does that keep AR on his feet and healthy on Sunday, 10/18?

http://www.packers.com/team/coaches/campen_james/
Campen's claim-to-fame is as a teacher, preparing Wells & Whitticker to play in 2005, and grooming Colledge, Spitz, Moll, Barbre, and Sitton. Either he's starting w/ nothing and making something of it, OR he's starting with talent and not developing it - which is it?

At this point, I'd rather keep the unit together, including Campen, and work on pass-blocking 95% of the time. GB's passing game IS the strength of the offense, keep AR upright, give him 4-5 seconds and let him pick-apart the D. Mix in an occasional draw play to keep the D honest, but play to your strengths. This will allow TT to cut/trade a fullback and a RB, freeing-up roster spots for another healthy tackle, and another healthy safety.

Maybe Packerchatters can get a fund going to buy tickets for the wives, girlfriends, moms, dads, grandmas, college and high school football coaches of the O linemen. Maybe the fear of being embarrassed in front of them would get them going, then again they sure did not seem to mind getting embarrassed on national last night...

Really Mike, the game I was watching the Packers ran 95% of their plays to the right side AWAY from Lang. They also were keeping a TE and at times a RB to help chip for him.

The inability to pass protect is killing the 2009 Packers. While this was not entirely unexpected, no-one imagined it would be this awful. An examination of the three sacks from the first half of the Vikings game — while Colledge was still in at left tackle — shows that there is plenty of blame to go around. The linemen are struggling both individually and as a unit, with technique and with assignment; Rodgers is trying to do too much rather than take what the defense gives him; and the sideline is not helping with playcalling and lack of adjustment. (I only have the TV angle to go on, so it's impossible to say whether the receivers are doing their bit by failing to get separation, too.)

All three of the first-half sacks occurred with the Vikings rushing only four. On the game's first drive, Green Bay had advanced to the Minnesota 25 on eight plays (six passes, two runs, plus two penalties). On first-and-10, the Packers lined up with two receivers either side, Rodgers under center, and a running back (Grant?) deep. Minnesota bunched the Mike and Will linebackers together on the weakside, as if to threaten an extra rusher, but both LBs would ultimately drop into coverage.

The play started badly for the Pack when LDT Pat Williams got a lightning quick start. His precipitation forced the Packers to double-team him with C Wells and RG Sitton. Grant did not stay back to protect; he darted across the line in anticipation of a middle-screen, leaving the three remaining linemen one-on-one with the Vikings defensive line. That was a mismatch. Both tackles failed miserably. RT Allen Barbre raised his hands, and got swiped by LDE Robison, leaving Robison with a clear outside route to the quarterback. LT Daryn Colledge for some reason dived at RDE Jared Allen's legs, but missed and ended up on his back with his legs in the air, like a doomed insect. To add insult to ignominy, LG Jason Spitz lost his man too, although by the time Kevin Williams had rumbled past him the play was over.

This was the worst protection that Rodgers would have in the first half. He barely had time to set his feet before he saw Robison looming. However, Rodgers compounded the situation by turning away from Robison. Not only did he take his eyes off the pressure, but he also lost sight of the play as it developed downfield. It is hard to tell from the TV angle, but Grant appeared to be open over the middle and three of the four receivers were now out of Rodgers' field of vision. Perhaps Rodgers was hoping to run, but he would have been better advised to throw the ball away or even take Robison's sack. Instead he ran into Allen and lost the football.

Sack #2 happened on the first play of the second quarter, score 7-7, after the Vikings had gone three-and-out, giving Green Bay excellent field position. It was first-and-10 on the third play of the drive, with the Packers lined up in the I, preparing play-action. The play was designed to look like a run to the right with LG Spitz and RG Sitton pulling up front, leaving Rodgers with room to spin out left and look downfield. The Vikings were in a curious formation for a running down: both DEs were lined up wide, the LDE over TE Jermichael Finley, the RDE a yard or two outside of LT Colledge, and the Sam and Mike linebackers bunched together in the middle. Clearly the Packers' between-the-tackles running game doesn't command much respect: the Williams twins were on their own here. If ever there was a case for an audible, here it was.

This time the Packers chose to double-team Kevin Williams, using Wells and Colledge to smash him into inactivity. That left FB John Kuhn to pick up the RDE, which he did very effectively. The problems arose on the other side of the field, where the Vikings' LDE span wide on a run blitz. One of the pulling guards was charged with pursuing him, but it's not clear which one, as they both raced outside to block him. They were quickly joined by RB Ryan Grant after the play action: three Packers blocking one Viking. Inevitably that left Barbre one-one-one with Pat Williams, and Barbre got manhandled, swiped out of the way. Williams then began chugging towards Rodgers as the play-action unfolded.

Having spotted Williams, Rodgers rolled out left, keeping his eyes downfield. He failed to see strong-side linebacker Ben Leber, who had not pursued the run, leaving only open ground between him and Rodgers. The Packer QB was sacked before he had time to think about throwing. Who was supposed to account for the linebackers on the play? The weakside LB took himself out by playing the run; the middle LB dropped into coverage. What about Leber? To my eyes, the Packers should have audibled out of the play (or called a timeout).

The third sack came on third-and-5, on the third play of a drive which began at the Packer 25. Again the Packers had four receivers, with Jennings in motion to create a trips set on the right. Rodgers was in the shotgun with DeShawn Wynn at halfback to his left. The Vikings again set their DEs wide, outside the tackles, with the RDT over left tackle and the LDT in the gap between RG Sitton and RT Barbre. The linebackers were in a flat V and the secondary showed zone coverage.

Again the Packers assigned two blockers — Wells and Spitz — to RDT Kevin Williams. With Williams taken care of, Wells then pulled away to look for a linebacker to block. But there was none: Minnesota had dropped seven into coverage, and was banking on its linemen being able to get pressure by themselves. Wynn lingered a while to see if Colledge needed help one-on-one with RDE Allen, but Colledge seemed to be holding up, so Wynn chose instead to run diagonally toward the left touchline, where he appeared to be open.

By now, the right-hand side of the pocket was in trouble. Both rushers were out wide and on the point of overcoming their blocker. Rodgers noticed this and had to make a quick decision. Either he could dump the pass off to Wynn, or he could advance in the pocket, in a bid to scramble or set up for a downfield throw. Unfortunately he made the wrong choice. He pumped uselessly in the direction of Wynn — hoping to give himself running space in front of the linebackers? — and then tried to squeeze between the swarming rushers, Pat Williams to his right and Jared Allen to his left. But by this time Allen had defeated Colledge: having motioned inside, Allen dropped his hands, got a push on Colledge's upper body, and went around the outside. Rodgers misjudged the space that was available to him, as Allen was able to get a full stretch and bring Rodgers down.

Rodgers didn't have a load of time — the sack happened inside three seconds — but he did have space: it was a five-step drop out of the shotgun. Wynn and one other receiver (playing from the left slot) appeared to be open when he pumped, and both could have made five yards for a first down. If Wynn was not a receiving option, he should have stayed back to help block Allen. As it was, he was utterly superfluous.

In conclusion, these examples show that the Packers' protection issues are not the result of one single correctable weakness. There is plenty of blame to be shared by plenty of individuals. McCarthy responded to his players' request to play less max-protect, but Rodgers did not show great awareness of the protection breakdowns around him, and remained reluctant to check down under pressure. Using only five blockers on a line as talented as Minnesota's — and failing to adapt to Leslie Frazier's strategy of spreading out his defensive linemen — meant that the Packers' tackles were frequently left one-on-one with the Viking ends, and they could not cope, compounding the mismatches with poor technique and assignment errors. On top of all that, the Vikings showed no respect for the Packers' running game, especially between the tackles; they basically willed the Pack to run on them, yet McCarthy called 13 passes and 6 runs in the first half (excluding the final drive) despite giving up three sacks and an interception.

Wow, excellent analysis. Thanks

It would have made a HUGE difference in last night's game. Clifton would have handled Allen much better and everyone else would have been in the position they trained at.

Bigby would have known his assignment and at least one of BF's TDs would not have occurred. (Martin should be cut)

Jackson would have been far better than Wynn, who should also be cut.

I counted 2. On the other six, he either had no way to escape the pocket to throw it away, or the defenders were too close to risk exposing the ball. Those six are ALL on the OL.

Simply cutting players left and right is not the answer. Aside from one dropped pass, what was so bad about Wynn's performance?

When Lang came in, Rodgers had his best protection since the first quarter. Not sure what game you were watching.

And they were using 6-7 man protections with help for Lang.

Great analysis. Thanks for sharing. I still think that Rodgers is doing too much and trying to hold the ball for too long. Throw it away and move onto the next play. I think that he could have checked off to Grant, Wynn and Lee for three of his sacks and should have thrown away the ball when Leber got to him. He won't have great protection with the guys he has in front of him, but he can't keep holding the ball until the last possible second. Rodgers needs to get the ball out quick and make good decisions, and MM needs to call high percentage plays that get the ball out of his hand and into the receivers hands. They're some of the best YAC players in the league. Let them make some plays. There's been no short passing game this year at all.

Not that much. I saw several plays where he was on his own and he was only in for less than 1 quarter, so if I noticed it on tv, there was certainly more times I didn't see where he was without help. I was thinking 'what are they doing not giving him help?"

JAS...You are not alone..I saw the same stuff and asked the same question....but the kld played okay.. I wonder what a few weeks or something to get him game ready how well he might fare....

The first 3 plays were run to the right away from him. Also Wynn and Lee were lined up behind him to max protect, he got alot of help

You are correct.

I recommend tivo

And Lang still gave up a sack.

I'll take the word of the guy who actually called the protections on this one:

MM: "I thought T.J. Lang did an excellent job when he played down the stretch. We didn't help him a whole lot. I thought he did a good job coming off the bench."

I disagree. When they gave Rodgers time he picked apart the defense. Sure he held the ball a few times but the general problem is the offensive line is not doing it's job. You don't throw your offensive playbook in the garbage and just throw slants and hooks.

I think its a combination. Ever since week 1 of the season when Ogunleye handled Barbe Rodgers can't find a way to trust his line. He is trying to buy himself time but never seems to know where the rush is coming from, and by the time it he identifies and tries to avoid it, someone else is already on top of him.

When he gets time he certainly looks fantastic, I thinks its hard to say many QBs would have done better with such a crazy pass rush getting to him all the time, the O-Line certainly has holes that need to be fixed, what better time than this bye week?

Also we only face the Lions and the Browns until we play the Vikings again at home so we should go into that matchup (SHOULD being the opportune word) 4-2 hopefully frothing at the bit for some revenge.

I didn't say to throw the playbook in the garbage. Why does everything always have to be from one extreme to another? I said that I think they need to utilize short, quick passes and let the receivers do something with the ball. Especially when the coverage downfield is as good as it was last night. They were playing off at times and the pressure was hard and fast. Get the ball out quick and see what happens. Just like running screens should slow down the pass rush and running play action holds the safeties. . . quick passes forces coverage to move up a bit, hopefully opening up the downfield stuff a little more. The Packers are one dimensional right now. No running game. No short game. It's all boom or bust. With the shortcomings of the offensive line, there's no way that can be successful over the course of the season. Thus far. . . it hasn't been.

I'm working on a theory of what I would call the two second vs the three second QB. I need more tape on more QB's, but as I said in a different post, last night a lot of Favre's and Rodger's successes came on plays where they held the ball less than 2.5 seconds. At that duration, the pass rush doesn't have time to get there as long as a player on the offense tries to get in their way. It seems like at three seconds, the QB becomes at risk of getting sacked.

Interesting, but Favre and Rodgers both had some good sized gains on 2 second throws as they hit the receiver in stride and often got 10-15 yards or more. Fast didn't always imply short, because if the receiver got a good break off the line these plays were completed a bit down field.

The deep ball is nice, but it causes Rodgers to hold the ball more of three to four seconds, and at three seconds the sacks were occurring. The vikings got credit for great pass protection, but many of the throws were out in about 2 seconds and their line really didn't have to do much other than slow us down a fraction.

Just a theory at this point until I can get more data.

Sorry, can't agree with that. GM has done a great job building depth and a competitive squad. I think work needs to be done on the offense and defense, but from a free agent and draft perspective, he hasn't done a bad job at all with what was has been available for the position of the draft and the $$ placed on some of the overpriced FAs.