To quote Tim Ryan, "Talk about it."

7.5 seconds.

That's all I have to say about that.

Charitably, the 3-4 is four weeks old and takes a year to install.

Denver might disagree...

Still lets take the good with the bad, run D was great tonight. Would think that they should be able to get to the QB if you can stop AP.

Should have traded Kampman while they could.

The safetys have been invisible the past two weeks.

The run D was very good.

Defensive pressure??? uummmm, I thought I read about it once...

They were focused on stopping AP, which they did. Perhaps they were focused on it a little too much, but it's another game to learn from.

Why doesn Kampman not have is hand down in 3rd and longs? He has been one of the more dominating pass rushers, why not play to his strength's?

Sure they focused on him but you have to have some pressure packages based on down and distances. You can't throw those pressure type packages out. I really thought that once they had AP under control, Capers would diguise some pressure. I'm suprised he didn't.

I thought the same thing. I was expecting more pressure in the second half. Nothing. They brought nothing. It looked pretty vanilla - not at all like a DC defense.

Kampman looks lost out there....thought he was going to be able to adapt to the 3-4 easier.

Maybe Capers had Favre in his head. He over emphasized coverage and under emphasized pressure. You must remember that if Favre had 7.5 seconds on one of his passes, then that means that the receivers were well covered for 7.5 seconds too. That's great coverage, but zero pressure.

Favre just had his number.

That was a funny play. They blitzed two or three guys on that play and when they got stoned at the line, they all just quit and dropped 3 yards into coverage. don't just stop and drop into coverage keep that motor going and get after the qb.

Did anyone here watch Favre's post game Q&A.

To me it almost sounded like he thought playing against this scheme was easier. Stated that with the new scheme and Al and Wood being so aggressive that he just had to pump fake to draw them up which made it easier. I cant recall his excact words but but it just hit me like he was saying this scheme was easier to play against.

Successful 3-4 d's usually have stud MLBs. The Pack has- Nick Barnett and AJ Hawk.

Yeah, who both look like lost dogs when it comes to pass coverage. Oh, and someone mentioned our safeties, oh you mean those knuckleheads that seemed to never be in position and wait I think I just saw Collins go diving across my computer screeen trying to defend my cursor!?!?! I don't think I ever saw the guy on his feet, it was like superman flying around after blowing his assignment, nothing the back of his jersey.

Didn't Collins just play in the Pro Bowl?

C'mon guys get a grip...the 3-4 is a new defense for these players (all of them) and you just do not make the transition in 4 games!

Too many people got excited by the preseason and then the game against the Bears where they pressured Cutler into making mistakes. The defense is coming along fine. Slowly, but fine. It takes at least 1 year to install it and have everyone on board. IMO, the D Line and cornerbacks have looked pretty good so far, but the LBs and safeties look confused and out of sync. Aaron Kampman is doing exactly what he's been asked to do. He's keying the run and playing back instead of rushing the LOS right off the snap. I wish they'd turn him loose more often, but for whatever reason they simply aren't asking him to do that.

When Dom Capers was hired and the decision was made to switch to the 3-4, I was 50/50 on how I thought Aaron Kampman would handle the transition to OLB. I've been really optomistic that he'll end up being really good at the position once he gets his reads right and his reaction time speeds up to game speed so he's not thinking about what he's doing. I have a lot of faith in Kevin Greene to bring out the best that AK has to offer. I figured that it would take at least until midseason before he really started to look like an OLB. So far, he's been asked to primarily play the run on the left side. He's still working with positioning and footwork, but he's been improving. My biggest concern is that he's just not being asked to rush the passer. They've been blitzing with the middle linebackers a lot and either keeping Kampman back to play the run or dropping him into coverage. He's the best pass rusher on the team. I think that he should be rushing the QB 3/4 snaps out of every 5, and there should be at least 10 snaps a game where they line up in a 4-3 with his hand on the ground and a DE-style pass rush (especially 3rd and long situations). I guarantee that he'd have more success getting to the QB if they did that. The funny thing is, that overall he's not doing a bad job. He looks a little lost sometimes, but statistically he's doing well for his position. Kampman is the only starting LOLB who is converting from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB this year and is the only player who doesn't already have at least one year worth of experience in a 3-4 defense.

What the hell happened to the blitz?

I'm probably overreacting and overanalyzing.

But Capers doesn't seem to be the first Packer DC who talked about blitzing more, but then ended up not blitzing that much after a while.

Perhaps (certainly) this is different. Perhaps it was one unique game-plan. Perhaps we'll see plenty of blitzing as the season progresses.

But I wonder if DC's (and fans) think blitzing is good in theory, but then when they start seeing the actual Packer defenders try to blitz and doing so unsuccessfully, then they give up trying. if you blitz without getting through and making plays, what is the point? If our blitzers and pass-rushers are so poor that they can't make plays even when they do blitz, why compromise the coverage and run defense for the sake of ineffective blitzes?

Maybe Capers is cutting back on blitzes because Woodson and to some degree Chillar are the only guys with any aptitude?

Won't know until they try. Al Harris has always been a good blitzer. Tramon Williams seemed to do well this preseason. Bishop looked good. Matthews has some rush ability and Hawk I think does as well. Barnett is not a great blitzer. He never has been. Doesn't have the feel for the timing needed for it. I think that the game-plan has been to stop the run since Cedric Benson gashed them three weeks ago. Hopefully a full two weeks is enough time to get the defense up to speed so they can open the playbook as much as needed, so they can stop the run and rush the pass. When the players are more comfortable with their assignments they'll blitz. It's a virtual given with this defensive scheme. I really just hope to see them go with more 4 down linemen and see how well Kampman can do with his hand on the ground some. That's one way to get some more pressure on the QB. I just can't see how dropping him back into coverage is the best option on 3rd and long ever. They need him to rush the QB more. I'm really hoping that the bye gives them the time needed to put that into the gameplan so we can see him put some more pressure on the quarterback. It's imperative that they let Aaron Kampman rush the passer. Until they do, they will struggle to get sacks and interceptions.

I agree 100%.

what troubles me the most about the change is that he generally hasn't been effective when rushing from standing up. i get what Dom Capers is doing, disguising who's coming and who's covering where/who, and i like that aspect. but Kampy really seems like he's being wasted. apparently Gruden agrees with us too. we should try letting him rush from a 3 point on nickel instead of the 2 down linemen formation.

also, corners need to be faking blitzes more, or be smart enough to flex back into coverage sometimes. QBs seem to sniff out most of our CB blitzes, which obviously limits their effectiveness. even Kyle Boller saw a telegraphed blitz, audibled, and took advantage of it.

Keep in mind Kamp's launch point is different, and hence the muscle groups and leverage depending on his stance. He needs to play in a 2 point stance and I imagine that mixing it up would be detrimental to not just the scheme, but Aaron's transition.

Locking into coverage against the vikes, just like insisting on playing nickle against the bengals really hurt the team. I think its reasonable to put that on Capers.

Blitzing is dangerous, but rushing 3 should be a rarity. I am seriously quite annoyed with the amount of 'give up' pass rushes in that game. At some point you have to play ball with the Safety you have back there and stop being a little girl.

And if the offense puts 6 OL and a 270lb FB on the field, I would personally go with more than 2 lineman. Or maybe after failing once. Or twice. Or three times. Anywhere in there woulda been a good time to react to the situation. Oops another 20 yard run.


Ok 'nuff ranting.

It is entirely, and probably possible that this early in both the scheme and the season the players are too shaky to blitz with integrity. A little timing mismatch probably equals a nice hole for an NFL RB. Either way Capers is not confident enough in his guys to dial it up, it seems.

I thought he'd look much better too. He just looks stiff and clumsy in coverage, has no pass rush from 2 point stance and can't seem to get off blocks in run D.

Can anyone decipher this remark from Bernard Berrian on why he was more successful Monday than he has been in the past against the Packer secondary?

"They don’t get hands on you in their coverage, which we noticed in film study. It’s Cover-2 but the way they play it they’re not really forcing you to the sideline or anything like that. They are really clueing in on the quarterback to get a read on something else."

It means he's a girly man and when the GB DBs got their hands on him and mauled him he couldn't handle it. Now that they're playing zone, peeking into the backfield and concentrating on reading the QBs eyes he's having a much easier time of it.

Question of the month.

My guess is that Capers doesn't trust the safeties enough to bring the pressure.

You need two things for a successful blitz:

1. Extra guys from the backfield to pass rush, and
2. A backfield that can contain the play if the blitzers don't get to the QB

That second one is even more important than the first -- you simply cannot blitz if the potential downside is automatically giving up a mess of yards.

I'm willing to bet that we see more blitzing with Collins healed up and Bigby back in the lineup.

I reviewed the game film from the Vikings-Rams game this week. So what you ask?

I was trying to analyze the idea of Defensive Pressure on the QB. Here's what I found in reference to pressuring Farve, and I think it applicable in general.

On a safety blitz, where the safety was not blocked, it took about 2.55 seconds to get to Favre, and he was sacked. So, it is possible to pressure him. Note the time though. Unblocked took roughly 2.5 seconds to get there.

On plays that Favre unloaded the ball in less than 2.5 seconds, he was 14/17 with zero picks and one TD.

On plays where he held the ball 2.5 seconds or more, he was 4/7 with 1 sack and one pick. Interesting though, is that of the successful long holds, he rolled out on 2, buying a lot of extra time.

What about Boller you ask?

The somewhat questionable Kyle Boller was 15/20 when he got rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds.

When he held the ball over 2.5 seconds, he was 5/11 with 1 sack, one fumble where he was about to get sacked, one fumble following a catch, and 1 pick.


Now, it is a limited data set, but I think an interesting conclusion can be drawn.

PRESSURE STARTS WITH TIGHT COVERAGE! Bad things happen when the QB holds the ball longer than 2.5 seconds, and do not usually happen when the QB gets it out fast.

Favre doesn't get in trouble when he dumps the ball quickly, indeed he is quite succesful with the quick short pass. And the data shows the same thing for a less than stellar QB as well. To beat him, the first thing you need to do is tie up the receivers in the first 2.5 seconds. Until you can do that, bringing pressure doesn't help. The defensive backs need to force the QB to hold the ball so that the pass rush has time to get there.

It's not as simple as blitz or no blitz. There are different blitz calls, and used for different reasons. They have blitzed more than you think, if you define a blitz as sending more than four.

Here is the very simple problem. The timing and execution of various blitzes has been awful. They tip their hand too early and the opposing team knows who's coming, and where they're coming from. For a 3-4 to be successful, you need guys moving all over the place pre-snap, so the offense has no idea what the defense will do. We're not seeing that.

Part of it is because they wanted to focus on stopping the run vs Rams and Vikings. Yet there were plenty of down/distance situations where they could have used the approach described above.

Part of the problem of timing and execution is that I don't think many of the players arevery good at it. Hawk, Barnett, Collins, etc. Woddson is probably the best at it, but since he's also the best coverage guy, he can't be the one asked to blitz constantly. I think it's time to give Bishop a shot to play an entire game in place of Hawk to see what he can do. And they need to move Kampman around. He's always accounted for.....pretty much treated like the left DE in opposing team's protection scheme.

Capers, by all accounts, is an excellent DC. It's time we see it.

I think they didn't blitz more against the vikes because of who we had back there at safety (Martin). He got benched, so I guess the coach's instinct was right on that one. Would YOU call the blitz if you had Bush back there at safety? Me neither. If you don't have guys on the back end that you can trust to play correct coverage, you shouldn't blitz. I think that sums up that game plan for the vikes. I expect to see more blitzing with Bigby back.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't a big reason why. But, if you do it right with an all-out blitz you should be able to get to the QB before the WRs even have time to get down the field. Not rushing 5, I'm talking rushing 7. Three guys off the same edge, making it impossible to pick them all up and forcing an immediate throw.

Now there is risk in that, but that's what you see very good 3-4 defenses do. Sure, they'll send 5 from various angles and create pressure. But you have to be willing to send the kitchen sink and make the QB dump the ball immediately sometimes with an all-out blitz.

Sitting back in a soft zone seldom works, and certainly not with the pesonnel we have.

That is a very good point!

Could be true. And could explain a lot of things.

Another excellent explanation. Some tangent thoughts (I don't know whether I believe any of them...)

1. So, perhaps our great "we've got three pro-bowlers and Tramon would be starting on 28 other teams" secondary isn't quite as good as some of us spun it to be? Or are those 3-4 guys awesome, but it 100% collapses if you don't have a fourth pro-bowler playing?

2. Perhaps we need to get a new secondary coach. Hmm, I know a coach who got fired last year whose guys played a lot of tight coverage with that bump-and-run defense instead of the soft zone. I know fans of his team didn't like him, but maybe we should get a bump-and-run philosophy?

I do think this (especially when combined with Berian's) point has a lot of merit. If receivers are given a lot of cushion and allowed to run where they want to run, it won't take real long for the QB to find somebody. And if a guy is throwing with as much velocity and accuracy as Favre was last Monday, he's going to hit the targets. Maybe the disruptive bump-and-man coverage was wise after all, despite the penalties and the difficulty tracking the ball or making INT's.

I think the soft zone helped with the run coverage, because as the press pointed out in the pre-season, the defensive backs can read the QB and the play, whereas before they were focused on the press coverage.

Since putting a stopwatch on the film, I have to disagree with the notion of getting the blitz there before the throw if you send more guys. As I recall reading some place, the west coast offense developed as a counter to the 3-4 defense. It is designed to get the ball out fast. What I have found, is that no matter which team I have looked at so far, you won't get a man to the QB in less than 2 seconds even if unblocked. Favre for example, running the west coast, gets the ball out often in less than 2 seconds. You could send 11 guys, if they don't jump off sides he'll unload the ball before you get there. That was the Minnesota game plan against us, and the soft zone coverage played right into it.

I believe it was a conscious decision by Capers heading up to the game, in order to ensure they stopped Peterson. The Vikings really ahdn't shown the aggressive pass oriented offense earlier in the year, and against the 49ers, Favre didn't look that good until the final play. I don't see him making that mistake when Favre comes to Lambeau.

I think the 3-4 would generate much better pressure with aggressive press-man coverage.

Excellent read and very informative! Thank you!

That is an excuse that Capers pulled out himself. But the problem with that lame excuse is that our run D was so good on 1st and 2nd that MN were often in 3rd and 5+, often without Peterson on the field, and that is when they toasted us when we generated zero pressure. So, I think the AP excuse is invalid.

The lack of faith in the safety is the more likely explanation. Too often our blitzes are coming from our blitzing-incompetent LBs--in the preseason and Bears game we had the most success with our corners blitzing. I guess because they don't trust their safeties, they want more "coverage" guys on the back end and won't blitz them.

If I'm an opposing team, I wouldn't even bother with the run on the Packers, I'd pass 98% of the time. You'd probably score 40+.

What? You can't play man coverage in a 3-4. The whole point of a 3-4 is to zone blitz. And that could come form anywhere...LB,safety, corner. You can't have the corenrs playing man and LB playing zone.

Stopping AP had nothing to do with playing a soft zone and rushing 3 on 3rd downs. As mikeb said, often times they had 3rd and long and AP wasn't even on the field.

The Ravens play plenty of man in their 3-4.

Zone blitz and zone coverage are two separate issues. You can zone blitz from the 3-4 or the 4-3. Likewise, you can play man in the 3-4 or the 4-3. Its all about personel packages and assignments.