Anyone else notice that whenever the Packers do something bone headed McCarthy starts talking about "fundamentals". He says the word a LOT, I mean A LOT. In todays (9/21/9) press conference he said it 7 times. He's been preaching fundamentals for 4 years nows yet that seems to be where we lack. Irony!

I really was bugged by this quote:



I just think Mike puts too much emphasis on what happens in practice, and not enough emphasis on what's actually happening on the damn field during gameday. It's like "We're getting completely owned right now, but this worked awesome in practice, so let's keep at it!"

He needs to learn to differentiate between practice and gameday. I don't care what happened in practice - you need to act based on what's happening right now on the field. Maybe Grant's the best running back in practice. Well it doesn't translate to gameday, so I don't care. Maybe those long bombs worked in practice, but they're getting exploited on gameday, so stop running them.

I'm starting to believe Mike would be a better offensive coordinator than a head coach.

Its all about pad level, fundamentals, technique, getting back to basics, fixing things, stepping it up...BLAH BLAH BLAH

The same stuff we have been hearing for since he got here.

Exactly, the same problems he professes to fix in his speeches are the same problems that pop up over and Over AND OVER.

I think MM lost me. Seriously. I don't know when it happened, maybe it was yesterday, maybe it was the week before, who knows and who cares, but when I look at Mike now, I see a guy who should not be the Head Coach of the Green Bay Packers.

I would argue that when a player keeps underperforming on fundamentals, at some point, one needs to conclude the player is not that good. Certainly not good enough to start in the nfl. Says to me that we need better offensive line players.

But McCarthy always contends that you can coach up fundamentals ya know? That's my issue? He's been blathering on about coaching players up but never seems to.

Lets look at the word "fundamental" shall we.

1 a : serving as an original or generating source : primary <a discovery fundamental to modern computers> b : serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function : basic
2 a : of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts : radical <fundamental change>; also : of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application <fundamental science> b : adhering to fundamentalism
3 : of, relating to, or produced by the lowest component of a complex vibration
4 : of central importance : principal <fundamental purpose>
5 : belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics : deep-rooted <her fundamental good humor>



Now Ive highlighted what IMO Mike is referring to when he talks about fundamentals in his post game interviews. When I think of the word "fundamental" I think of things that are taught or known at a young age. Young age to me is 7th and 8th grade and maybe the first 2 years of highschool. These are things like tackling, feet placement, hand placement, blocking, catching and throwing. These are things that make up the game of football for young people. They are things that are first taught when someone is learning the game.

I agree with chunkymonkey when he says that if the players we have now dont know the fundamentals of the game of football then they should be let go.

But I also believe that these players know what the aforementioned things are. Im pretty sure guys dont get to the NFL not knowing how to block, catch, tackle, etc...

The problem lies in the EXECUTION of these things. I have never attended a practice but I have watched the games and its clear that there is a total breakdown whether its physical or mental when it comes to basic principals of the game.

I would generally agree with this assesment, until I read a couple Vince Lombardi books.

I agree. I have been a big supporter of MM but he has now lost me as well and it happened yesterday. This is crap, people can say that the Bengals are a good team but I don't buy it. You do NOT lose these types of games at home.

MM's talking is also starting to get on my nerves. Has anyone else ever noticed how much he says "football team"?

The good news is , I don't think the phrase " Pad Level " was used once at the next day presser !! So , as a " Glass Half Full " kinda guy , I will take that as a positive !! On the other hand , in terms of the OL and their seemingly neverending inability to " execute the fundamentals " . It can only be one of three things . A . They are too dumb to understand what they are being coached . B . They understand what they are being coached but are not physically able to execute that coaching during a game . C . They have an inadequate OL Coach . As an outsider looking in I would have no way of knowing but I would lean toward C . Mike and Teddy cleaned house on the D side of the ball this past offseason , I wouldn't be suprised to see them do it with the OL coaches/ approach tthis offseason !!

I am also beginning to wonder if MM is the right Coach for this team....

I haven't given up yet, but fundamentally my mind is changing.

MM is gonna need to pull off one hell of a "REST OF THE SEASON" to stem this wave of discontent.

You still ok with the guy that hired MM and assembled the players on this roster? Not being sarcastic. Honest question to all.

There are a few things that are now starting to bother me:

1. Relying on Atari Bigby as a starting safety
2. Not addressing the RB position (Grant is mediocre, nothing behind him)
3. Thinking the O-line was going to cut it

Now our offensive line is in shambles. We could be heading into next season with serious needs at the RB, OL, CB and S positions.

Obviously TT and MM knew much more about the players than we do but cutting Anthony Smith sure does look stupid now. Also, if you are going to let a guy like Sutton perform the way he did only to cut him, why do you even bother to bring him into camp in the first place?

All I have to say is that TT better know something about Derrick Martin that we don't and Mark Tauscher's phone better ring soon.

Well certainly there's got to be some accountability all around. Last season, it was about 99 percent of the coaching staff.

Me, I tend to think that Thompson has put good players on the field. Not necessarily great, but above average. Rodgers I think is an upper-echelon QB. Woodson is all world. Rookies overall are pretty good. But we need a coach and staff that can maximize these players' abilities. Right now, that's not being done -- at all.

There's no creativity in the playcalling, and apparently, very little fire being put into the players.

And what's confused the hell out of me is quite simply, the way McCarthy has positioned himself. I've said many times that for a team to truly be successful, they've got to fully buy into what the coach is selling. If they don't, you get basically the equivalent of a Romeo Crenel-led team.

We in the ad biz would call McCarthy's pitch pretty weak.

He comes across as being this blue collar, no-nonsense, work-in-a-steel-mill kind of guy that won't take any crap and really focuses on the bare bones, nitty gritty (that enough buzz words for ya?) elements of football.

Thing is, the team has utterly failed in all of these areas. The penalties show a complete lack of discipline, the toughness (or extreme lack thereof) shows McCarthy's weak message isn't getting through and his playcalling isn't working - yet he seems hell bent on not deviating from his course of action.

And because of all this, I think he's coming off as majorly disingenuous. And football players can sense that. And when they do, it's going to cause a real problem.

I don't know if the Packers are at THAT point yet, but I've got a real hunch they're close.

I just think we have bad trenches and now our two best safties are dinged up.

Great coaches cannot turn miracles with below average talent.

Honestly, I am.

I have come to terms with Thompson's method of building this team with the draft. I think he's not the draft guru people give him credit for but he's taken some chances that paid off tremendously. In fact, this year's class may be one of his best when it's all said and done. Can he draft quality offensive lineman? Meh. I still haven't decided if it's his evaluation of talent, or if it's on MM for not 'coachin' em up'. But that's for a different thread...and a different day.

My concern with Thompson now, and obviously hindsight is 20/20, is that we keep hearing about how we have one of the youngest teams in the league year in and out, right? Well if this was Thompson's plan all along, to build this team through the draft, I just don't know if choosing Mike McCarthy, a man with absolutely no head coaching experience, and mostly ugly OC gigs, was the right guy to lead this team. Call me crazy, but there was a wholesale on HC's that year, with a ton of decent candidates available. And let's be honest, no one jumped out of their chair at this hire.

I just think there are certain coaches in this league who respond better than others to coaching rookies/younger players and getting them ready for gameday, Day 1. Jeff Fisher, comes to mind. Mike Holmgren, John Fox, defensively Lovie Smith, Andy Reid, etc.

I know, I know. This sounds ridiculous. Just a little one of my crazy theories. Plus, none of those (some HOF) HC we're available, obviously. I'm just saying that if this was Thompson's plan from Day 1, he should brought in a guy that could get through to the younger guys better.

I'm just sayin'...

I've said in many posts that I was willing to see what TT's assembled team did this season, and I am rooting for it to be a good one and have been very optimistic throughout training camp. I'm still not ready to give up by the way, either. However, if it is another stinker like last year, then MM and TT both need to go IMO, they are joined at the hip. If we ended up under .500 with the supposed talent we have on the team again, I think it would be hard to figure out if it were the talent or the coaching, so in that case they would both need to go.

Good argument, Heat, I agree with everything you wrote, except:



I think we have the opposite problem. McCarthy fires up his team to the point where they're over-anxious to make plays. As you point out, the players don't necessarily believe in these plays, so they get the adrenaline buzz without the gut feeling that they're executing something that is worthwhile. This was evident on the defense last year, and led to a ton of mental mistakes, freelancing, and maybe even injuries. It's happening on special teams in 2009, and perhaps on offense.



For me, McCarthy's obstinacy is his greatest shortcoming. Unlike some previous contributors to this thread, I think he and his staff do a good job coaching up young talent: Thompson likes to take NFL-unready projects with his lower-round picks, and then feed them to the coaches. Players like Jones and Finley were unbelievably raw when drafted; now, thanks to coaching, they are contributors. I also think the offensive playbook is better than average in variety and productivity. However, once McCarthy makes up his mind about something, it takes aeons to unmake it. Running back by committee didn't work in 2006? Scrap it forever. The zone run off right-tackle was successful once against Chicago? Run it twice more, then twice again versus the Bengals for no yards.

Are the Packers' penalties about indiscipline? Or over-anxiety? There aren't as many personal fouls or incorrect line-up infringements as in past years. But there are still plenty of false starts, holding, and pass interference calls. To me, that suggests a team which is being asked to do things that, deep down, it doubts it is capable of doing. The best coaches rarely put their players in such a position. They make adjustments.

I have never gotten the whole fundamentals thing. How in the world do you get drafted in the NFL if you don't have fundamentals? Most players participate in organized football a minimum of six years. How do you not learn the fundamentals of a job in six years? Who among us would still be doing the same profession if we didn't learn the fundamentals in six years. LuvDa, would you sill have a lawn service if you couldn't learn how to start a mower? This is ridiculous.

Like MM said in his presser it is time for the players to step up. An end on punts runs down the field when he sees the ball move. He doesn't have to wait until it is kicked. You see the ball move. You run. Not rocket science here. Yet we get two false starts because the end didn't wait for the ball to move. You don't or shouldn't need to EVER coach this at the pro level. We have the youngest team in the league, but they still should have gotten the fundamentals down years ago!

Alright. Rant over.

I don't hold MM completely without responsibility. If the players have their heads up their asses then he needs to dumb it down for them. But seriously how much hand holding do you have to do? I have seen the problem the last two years as 80% players and 20% coaching/motivation. But don't get me started on motivation.

Can we just stop with the youngest team crap. Green Bays 22 starters are the fifth oldest group in the league. The starters are not a bunch of clueless rookies and are on the field for the great majority of the plays. This is not any kind of excuse for this teams turmoil, and if I'm MM or TT I'm waking up in a cold sweat over it. Especially after the media did them such a huge favor and completely oversold this team based on preseason results. This lesson just NEVER seems to get learned, preseason means nothing, 0, zilch, it bears absolutely no relation to what will happen in the regular season.

Making AR an MVP candidate based on preseason, what a load of horse manure. And when every sportscast jumps on the bandwagon, expectations for the hyped team rise to unattainable levels and all the fans of said team are disappointed. I tell you, if I'm MM or TT I am seriously worried about the rest of this season and beyond. If they can't get this teams record into positive territory by the end of this season, that horse manure is going to hit the fan.

My turn to rant. I believe there is tremendous pressure on MM to get this team back to the playoffs. IMO anything less then a playoff berth for this team and MM is in trouble. I gave MM a pass last year because of all the changes and with a new QB learning how the NFL game is played.

I am in this young season seeing the same team as I did last year. Coming out flat and playing with no emotion. Way to many penalties. All these flags are a direct result of coaching IMO. The same plays being called. I can watch a game and tell when the stretch handoff to the right is coming. No halftime adjustments. I read today on Jason Wildes blog I believe that MM did not alter the gameplan when Cliffton went down are you kidding me.

Maybe it is time for MM to give up his playcalling duties and just be a head coach. I hear MM all the time about players being accountable. It is time for MM to be accountable. How can your star WR Jennings not catch a ball. I remember Coach Holmgren putting Sterling Sharpe in motion and line him up as a RB to stop DB from jamming him at the line of scrimmage. How can you be an offensive guru if you can't find ways to get your star the ball.

Look folks the 2009 season is two games in and I am still exited what this team brings to the table. But the loss to CINCY was devestating IMO. Lots of problems to be fixed in a short amount of time. MM as the head coach and leader of this team it is your job to get these problems fixed.

There is a pretty good anyalist in the Monday Night football booth John Gruden that began his NFL coaching career in GB. I'm sure someday he would love to get back into coaching. Just a thought.

First, here is what I said about being the youngest team.

"We have the youngest team in the league, but they still should have gotten the fundamentals down years ago!"

I was not using that as any kind of an excuse.

Second, How many plays are there when only the starters are in there?

I wasn't really responding to your post. That's why I didn't quote from it. I always enjoy your posts.This youngest team thing is growing and growing as the Packers play undisciplined football. It just simply doesn't matter. Our core team is not the youngest in this league. I'd like to see a youngest team calculation based on the players who are active each week. It won't be us.

I know you weren't using it as an excuse, but it's out there,and it is starting to be accepted as one by some in the media. Most of the people on this site, knowledgeable fans such as yourself, are not taken in by it.

I always thought it was sort of funny the way MM says "fun-da-men-tals"

He has to say something, he can't say what he really is thinking "I haven't a clue what we need to do".

Maybe that is Teds plan keeping this the youngest team, it seems to work as an exuse when things go bad.

Any coach who points out his team is lacking in fundamentals is incriminating himself and his staff...

And perhaps that is exactly who should be incriminated. Better than throwing players under the bus

MM is limited in what he can say, but if you are going to have youth, then you better have the coaches to develop it

I am thrilled with the defensive coaches, clearly room for improvement with Philbin/Campen IMO

I would rather have Mike Sherman or Ray Rhodes over Gruden. You have no idea how he lost that team in Tampa. It was not pretty

Don't get me wrong, I like MM

I've been coaching basketball and baseball for most of my adult life

- Teaching fundamentals is the responsibility of the coaches
- Having the talent to execute those fundamentals is the responsibility of the players and (in Pro sports) the man who selected them

I didnt like the MM hire from day 1. Why hire a guy as a HC, who is coming off an OC stint where he was in charge of the worst offense in the league! What about that says HC material to you?

Not to mention this is the guy who wanted Alex Smith over Rodgers???

Leave it to Max to hit the essential truth in 17 words.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but have you ever noticed how useless it is to read or listen to anything a Head Coach or GM says in an interview. They answer questions and talk on and on and they rarely if ever give us any actual information that you can sink your teeth into. Most players aren't much better. The questions are almost always more telling than the answers.

One of their first jobs in the NFL must be to take a class called " How to Conduct an Interview Without Actually Saying Anything."

You know, the same class that politicians take.

I've been supportive of TT's methodology (building through the draft, developing and resigning your own players) but the thing that began occurring to me last season was the "Packer people" theme. Something I've noticed with every player TT has brought to this team: they're all great guys. There isn't a nasty SOB on the entire roster.

I don't think you can overlook that it takes a unique brand of todays pro athlete to be content in the smallest market in pro sports. And they all seem to be team first guys. Another positive IMO. But I really don't get the impression that any of them want to destroy the opponent. (save Bishop and Matthews, I'll reserve judgement on Raji)

Another point of contention that I take exception to is the "good fooball player" label. Enough of the Tony Moll, Corey Hall project types already. Stop drafting ST players and hoping to turn them into positional players. Draft good positional players and make them ST players. Hall has never been a great FB and he NEVER will be. For that matter he's only a decent ST player.

Frankly, TT and MM are both starting to lose me. But, I've said it before. Bottom line; discipline is the coaches responsibility. The Packers have been one of the most penalized teams in the NFL in MM's tenure and that only appears to be getting worse. Week after week, he talks about "cleaning up" fundamentals and technique.

I don't know. Maybe the pro athlete's ego is just to frail to yell at them for screwing up things they should have perfected by high school.

Who didn't want Alex Smith over Rodgers at the time?

9/23/9 - McCarthy only said 'fundamental' twice today. I take that as a good sign.

I confess, as of Sunday, I'm starting to refresh my entire view of McCarthy. I'm having my doubts now too.

I'm beginning to wonder if he's not a bureaucrat type. An intelligent and innovative bureaucrat maybe, but a bureaucrat all the same. I'm just beginning to wonder, that's all.

Out of curiosity, Let's say you were working somewhere for three years and you kept making the same mistakes for three years (is it 4? I forget) what would happen? I think I wouldn't have a job or my boss wouldn't have a job. How can you say the same garbage for 3 years and have it be a legit excuse? Stop making excuses and get it done. I am amazed at how many people think he is so great when he keeps using the same stupid excuses which bottom line, as more briefly pointed out earlier in the post, only come back to incriminate him as a bad HC.

That's where it is for me, too. I'm almost embarrassed to admit how abruptly I've changed my opinion of McCarthy, but these last two games have gotten me to the point where I'm ready to give up on him. Going into this season, I really felt this was the year we should start to see things finally fall together for him. This was the year I was hoping to see the core of young players, and the team as a whole, turn the corner and blossom into what we were hoping was their potential. And McCarthy too, for that matter.

But what have we seen? The same predictable, completely uninspired playcalling by the coach. The same slow, or non-existent, in-game adjustments. The same lack of passion and discipline by the players. The same constant barrage of stupid penalties. The same incompetent special teams play. I'm at a complete loss to see any significant area of improvement in this team. I know it's only 2 games into the season, but despite all the young talent that's been brought into Green Bay the last 4 years, this team appears no better than it was 3 years ago, and in fact - in many ways - looks even worse.

And that's all on McCarthy. When this guy opens his mouth these days, i don't take a word he says seriously. Because it's the same cliches he's been repeating over and over again ever since he got here. It's time to put up or shut up. I don't want to hear it on Monday, I want to see it on Sunday. If he can't deliver - if he's not the guy to take this team and these young players to the next level - then he has to go. It's early, and he still has time to get the team turned around, but if he can't do it this year, he'd better not be here next year. What reason would there be for bringing him back for another season of this?

I detect that changing on this board. More and more posters are starting to question his Head Coaching abilities. Rightly so I believe.

I'm gonna have to agree with the masses in this thread: I'm starting to lose faith in Thompson and McCarthy. I gave them both a pass on last year considering the circumstances (new QB, massive drama, bad defensive coordinator, post-NFCC hangover, etc.), but had high expectations this year.

I'm not gonna declare them both dead after stumbling out of the gates - that'd be premature, IMO. A caution flag has been raised, for sure, but I'm not going to count them out just yet. However, if they don't get things together and produce a strong finish this year, then they may lose me completely.

Anything less than a playoff berth and/or 10 wins is unnacceptable this year.

Hopefully he won't say it after the Rams game.

The Rams game is very winnable. C'mon, the Pack will be Back guys. It's week 2, record's 1-1, it's not all that doom and gloom. The Rams will be a good team to get the wrongs righted and before you know it we'll be singing praise all around the coaching staff, front office and locker room. Hang tough, it was just one bad game. It happens.

Agree, we will and should beat the Rams. I am worried about how we compete against above average and good/great teams.

On offense if has been 2 bad games

It's not really the wins or losses. They've played terrible for nearly 2 games now. It's the way we lost to the Bengals, and the way we almost lost vs CHI. I need a convincing win this week. As convincing as 42-0.

Our record (1-1) isn't what concerns me. The way we've played in both games is what concerns me.

Taking bets on how many times McCarthy says 'fundamentals' in the post game presser.

I have a feeling that he won't be his jovial self after this game. I can only imagine the questions he's going to field.

It matters not. He has tipped the scales in my opinion...

There is talent on this team, just don't see the expected productivity. Denver/Jets seem to be able to get the job done with a bunch of no names...

Bye Bye MM.....

McCarthy has done a good job of teaching how to get penalties.

Something in his coaching style brings on penalties.