"Why so negative"?...He's one of the best GM's this team has "ever" had. His very first pick for the Packers was "fantastic"... The following year TT makes another great move by drafting Greg Jennings... Two great drafts in a row in TTs first two years. And we still get fans that what to say something negative about TT...
Fan's who say something negative about TT can't back it up...And when you ask them too "all you here is crickets"...
They can go and nick pick the offensive line, Justin Harrell or TT just isn't very good with talking to the media. But they can't say anything negative about TTs pick for the "most" important position in football. It's the one pick that should tell you how good your GM is. And TT hit "gold" with his very first pick as the GM for Greenbay. And all the negative fans just want to know is "how much longer is TT going to stay in Greenbay".
You all know how important the quarterbacks position is right. You know that Aaron Rogers has a better long ball then Brett Favre. And you know how much hope Aaron Rogers gives us this season.
49ers fans would be "flabbergasted" if they would have picked Aaron Rogers. I know because I live in 49er land. They saw what Aaron Rogers did last season "and" you know what, the 49ers don't have a quarterback right now. They have what you call is a game manager for their Quarterback position.
"We have a quarterback", and "TT" did it. So when I see negative fans nick picking TT, "I'm thinking" I guess they just don't get it.
Full Version: TT Got It Right
PackerChatters > PackerChatters > Green Bay Packers News Talk > Mark Murphy, Ted Thompson, Mike McCarthy, and Aaron Rodgers
Don't get over excited. It's still too soon to say that the QB spot is set for the next XX years. That's not being down on Rodgers, just being cautious/ realistic.
He had a great year and I think he's set for many more to come but you can't make these judgments after one season of playing.
He had a great year and I think he's set for many more to come but you can't make these judgments after one season of playing.
QUOTE (rpiotr01 @ Aug 15 2009, 05:30 AM) 
Don't get over excited. It's still too soon to say that the QB spot is set for the next XX years. That's not being down on Rodgers, just being cautious/ realistic.
He had a great year and I think he's set for many more to come but you can't make these judgments after one season of playing.
He had a great year and I think he's set for many more to come but you can't make these judgments after one season of playing.
How about after 2 seasons?
QUOTE (rob836 @ Aug 15 2009, 06:10 PM)
"Why so negative"?...He's one of the best GM's this team has "ever" had. His very first pick for the Packers was "fantastic"... The following year TT makes another great move by drafting Greg Jennings... Two great drafts in a row in TTs first two years. And we still get fans that what to say something negative about TT...
Fan's who say something negative about TT can't back it up...And when you ask them too "all you here is crickets"...
They can go and nick pick the offensive line, Justin Harrell or TT just isn't very good with talking to the media. But they can't say anything negative about TTs pick for the "most" important position in football. It's the one pick that should tell you how good your GM is. And TT hit "gold" with his very first pick as the GM for Greenbay. And all the negative fans just want to know is "how much longer is TT going to stay in Greenbay".
You all know how important the quarterbacks position is right. You know that Aaron Rogers has a better long ball then Brett Favre. And you know how much hope Aaron Rogers gives us this season.
49ers fans would be "flabbergasted" if they would have picked Aaron Rogers. I know because I live in 49er land. They saw what Aaron Rogers did last season "and" you know what, the 49ers don't have a quarterback right now. They have what you call is a game manager for their Quarterback position.
"We have a quarterback", and "TT" did it. So when I see negative fans nick picking TT, "I'm thinking" I guess they just don't get it.
Fan's who say something negative about TT can't back it up...And when you ask them too "all you here is crickets"...
They can go and nick pick the offensive line, Justin Harrell or TT just isn't very good with talking to the media. But they can't say anything negative about TTs pick for the "most" important position in football. It's the one pick that should tell you how good your GM is. And TT hit "gold" with his very first pick as the GM for Greenbay. And all the negative fans just want to know is "how much longer is TT going to stay in Greenbay".
You all know how important the quarterbacks position is right. You know that Aaron Rogers has a better long ball then Brett Favre. And you know how much hope Aaron Rogers gives us this season.
49ers fans would be "flabbergasted" if they would have picked Aaron Rogers. I know because I live in 49er land. They saw what Aaron Rogers did last season "and" you know what, the 49ers don't have a quarterback right now. They have what you call is a game manager for their Quarterback position.
"We have a quarterback", and "TT" did it. So when I see negative fans nick picking TT, "I'm thinking" I guess they just don't get it.
I like TT, and sometimes I am critical of his draft moves. Hawk, though not a bust, is certainly a disappointment after being drafted at #5. Dismissing the Harrell pick so cavalierly is odd. Harrell is definitely heading toward the designation of "bust", unless he can stay healthy and become somewhat productive this season. On the other hand, I agree, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Collins, Rodgers- all very solid picks. However, the Packers do not have a credible backup if Rodgers goes down. The punting situation is dismal. Mason Crosby has been a poor kicker to this point. The OL is still unsettled, a very annoying problem.
On balance, I'd be generous and give TT a "B" for his drafts and his handling of the team. His apparent philosophy of "BPA" (Best Player Available) has worked out well- especially in the case of Rodgers- so far. However, TT has been more solid outside of the first round rather than in the first round.
JMO
TT got it right about Cory Williams too! Did you see him "play" last night? The only time I noticed him was when he was standing next to the pile of bodies watching his teammates make the tackle! 
QUOTE (LMG @ Aug 15 2009, 08:27 PM)
How about after 2 seasons?
I think if he can duplicate or exceed last season this year we will be set for many more to come. Keeping him upright and uninjured is the key. As long as he stays healthy and the O line gives him time the sky is the limit for AR.
QUOTE (rob836 @ Aug 15 2009, 07:10 AM)
49ers fans would be "flabbergasted" if they would have picked Aaron Rogers. I know because I live in 49er land. They saw what Aaron Rogers did last season "and" you know what, the 49ers don't have a quarterback right now. They have what you call is a game manager for their Quarterback position.
Who knows. If AR went to SF, he could have ended up just like Smith, and Smith could have been the one to benefit from 3 years of learning in GB.
I keep wishing for Harrell to work out, even if it's as a backup. I just feel bad for the guy. I'm also usually one of the first to speak up for Hawk too. I think he's actually underrated in GB. My reason is that people expected him to be a Superman, they were disappointed, and now they view him as a failure.
Anyway, I don't think that any one person (TT, MM, AR, whomever) can "get it right" and make the team a winner. It's a team effort, you can't place individuals in a silo and dump all the blame or success on them. Doing so might be "the way of the Internet", but it's wholly unreasonable.
Couldn't disagree more.
TT so far has proven himself to be an average GM as a drafter.
AR fell to him because everyone else got stupid. If he really believed in AR he should have traded upward. He did not. Plus, all the mock drafts predicted the week before AR would fall. That was the point TT started really looking at him. That move is overrated.
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
Then he trades out of the first when he could have had a really good safety prospect in Phillips. Who will probably start this year for the Giants.
TT is OK at CAP management, though he signed some unwise big contracts like Franks and Grant. ANd he made a good trade in getting Grant, who he then overpaid.
ANd in four years, he still has not gotten the OL back to where it was under Sherman, one of the best in the NFL.
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
TT so far has proven himself to be an average GM as a drafter.
AR fell to him because everyone else got stupid. If he really believed in AR he should have traded upward. He did not. Plus, all the mock drafts predicted the week before AR would fall. That was the point TT started really looking at him. That move is overrated.
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
Then he trades out of the first when he could have had a really good safety prospect in Phillips. Who will probably start this year for the Giants.
TT is OK at CAP management, though he signed some unwise big contracts like Franks and Grant. ANd he made a good trade in getting Grant, who he then overpaid.
ANd in four years, he still has not gotten the OL back to where it was under Sherman, one of the best in the NFL.
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 16 2009, 02:23 PM)
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
First of all, I had DeMeco Ryans as the top ranked LBer that year, and I favored the proposed trade-down from Denver. Horn tooting out of the way, Hawk was one of the top coverage LBers in the NFL two years ago (this is supported by statistics from the Football Outsiders game-charting project), before playing through a groin injury last season.
Furthermore, it's hard to call him a "predictable mistake" when he's taken in a top-10 like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NFL_Draft#Round_one
QUOTE (rpiotr01 @ Aug 15 2009, 07:30 PM)
Don't get over excited. It's still too soon to say that the QB spot is set for the next XX years. That's not being down on Rodgers, just being cautious/ realistic.
He had a great year and I think he's set for many more to come but you can't make these judgments after one season of playing.
He had a great year and I think he's set for many more to come but you can't make these judgments after one season of playing.
Well, if AR were to suddenly 'flop' (very unlikely), how can you now blame it on TT drafting him? All TT can do is draft a guy that looks good. AR's lived up to that billing; the rest is on the coaching staff. TT can no longer be evaluated on AR. If AR suddenly got a career ending injury -- really -- would people in 2009 start dinging TT for drafting AR? Makes no sense. This is taking Monday morning quarterbacking (no pun) to the extreme!
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 17 2009, 01:23 AM)
Couldn't disagree more.
TT so far has proven himself to be an average GM as a drafter.
AR fell to him because everyone else got stupid. If he really believed in AR he should have traded upward. He did not. Plus, all the mock drafts predicted the week before AR would fall. That was the point TT started really looking at him. That move is overrated.
Well, if everyone else got stupid, then that makes TT smart. Nuff said. He could have chosen to overlook AR and take someone else. He didn't. Wolfe, on the other hand...for example...overlooked Randy Moss to take Vonnie Holliday (and even traded up to get him!).
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
If you want to look at #1s and compare Wolf to TT, shall we walk down the beaten to death conversations about Wolf's misses...Simmons, Teague, Buckley, Reynolds...and the average Franks, Holliday, Michels, Edwards. Wolf hit with Newsome, Taylor, Verba. Not that great a track record with #1s (and I love Wolf btw).
Then he trades out of the first when he could have had a really good safety prospect in Phillips. Who will probably start this year for the Giants.
TT is OK at CAP management, though he signed some unwise big contracts like Franks and Grant. ANd he made a good trade in getting Grant, who he then overpaid.
Wow. No comment necessary here.
ANd in four years, he still has not gotten the OL back to where it was under Sherman, one of the best in the NFL.
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
TT so far has proven himself to be an average GM as a drafter.
AR fell to him because everyone else got stupid. If he really believed in AR he should have traded upward. He did not. Plus, all the mock drafts predicted the week before AR would fall. That was the point TT started really looking at him. That move is overrated.
Well, if everyone else got stupid, then that makes TT smart. Nuff said. He could have chosen to overlook AR and take someone else. He didn't. Wolfe, on the other hand...for example...overlooked Randy Moss to take Vonnie Holliday (and even traded up to get him!).
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
If you want to look at #1s and compare Wolf to TT, shall we walk down the beaten to death conversations about Wolf's misses...Simmons, Teague, Buckley, Reynolds...and the average Franks, Holliday, Michels, Edwards. Wolf hit with Newsome, Taylor, Verba. Not that great a track record with #1s (and I love Wolf btw).
Then he trades out of the first when he could have had a really good safety prospect in Phillips. Who will probably start this year for the Giants.
TT is OK at CAP management, though he signed some unwise big contracts like Franks and Grant. ANd he made a good trade in getting Grant, who he then overpaid.
Wow. No comment necessary here.
ANd in four years, he still has not gotten the OL back to where it was under Sherman, one of the best in the NFL.
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
Just not sure where this is all coming from. Stale donut for breakfast?
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 16 2009, 01:23 PM)
Couldn't disagree more.
TT so far has proven himself to be an average GM as a drafter.
AR fell to him because everyone else got stupid. If he really believed in AR he should have traded upward. He did not. Plus, all the mock drafts predicted the week before AR would fall. That was the point TT started really looking at him. That move is overrated.
So by your logic, he only gets credit for a good draft pick if the player is very successful and he trades up for them. I'd rather see him get the player without trading up if possible. You really believe TT only looked at AR because of some mock drafts you saw?
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
I think if you want to call Hawk a mistake, you should provide a similarly rated player that should have been picked instead, and is more successful. Harrell was a calculated risk because TT rated him potentially better than anyone else he could have selected. So much so, that he took the risk on the medical issues. So far it looks like it didn't work out.
Then he trades out of the first when he could have had a really good safety prospect in Phillips. Who will probably start this year for the Giants.
But we have a really good starting safety TT drafted in the second. Perhaps if TT had traded up for him, you'd like him better I guess.
TT is OK at CAP management, though he signed some unwise big contracts like Franks and Grant. ANd he made a good trade in getting Grant, who he then overpaid.
True for Franks, but a little early to say that for Grant. TT also didn't overpay for players like Rivera, Wahle, Williams, etc.
ANd in four years, he still has not gotten the OL back to where it was under Sherman, one of the best in the NFL.
True, and I also believe he could have made better efforts, but you can't get every player you want, and I'm satisfied with his moves in other areas, especially filling the front seven for the 3-4 this year.
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
As long as you brought up Wolf, every time I hear someone say TT doesn't have the personality to be a GM I wonder. What was so good about Wolf's? Most times I saw him he looked bored and was kind of a sarcastic ass answering questions.
TT so far has proven himself to be an average GM as a drafter.
AR fell to him because everyone else got stupid. If he really believed in AR he should have traded upward. He did not. Plus, all the mock drafts predicted the week before AR would fall. That was the point TT started really looking at him. That move is overrated.
So by your logic, he only gets credit for a good draft pick if the player is very successful and he trades up for them. I'd rather see him get the player without trading up if possible. You really believe TT only looked at AR because of some mock drafts you saw?
Now take a look at two other number ones: Hawk and Harrell. I would actually like not to look at them. They have both proven to be mistakes. And predictable mistakes.
I think if you want to call Hawk a mistake, you should provide a similarly rated player that should have been picked instead, and is more successful. Harrell was a calculated risk because TT rated him potentially better than anyone else he could have selected. So much so, that he took the risk on the medical issues. So far it looks like it didn't work out.
Then he trades out of the first when he could have had a really good safety prospect in Phillips. Who will probably start this year for the Giants.
But we have a really good starting safety TT drafted in the second. Perhaps if TT had traded up for him, you'd like him better I guess.
TT is OK at CAP management, though he signed some unwise big contracts like Franks and Grant. ANd he made a good trade in getting Grant, who he then overpaid.
True for Franks, but a little early to say that for Grant. TT also didn't overpay for players like Rivera, Wahle, Williams, etc.
ANd in four years, he still has not gotten the OL back to where it was under Sherman, one of the best in the NFL.
True, and I also believe he could have made better efforts, but you can't get every player you want, and I'm satisfied with his moves in other areas, especially filling the front seven for the 3-4 this year.
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
As long as you brought up Wolf, every time I hear someone say TT doesn't have the personality to be a GM I wonder. What was so good about Wolf's? Most times I saw him he looked bored and was kind of a sarcastic ass answering questions.
Hawk was a predictable mistake in two ways:
1.) At the time he was chosen, GB was in a 4-3. He was going to play WLB then. You don't pick a WLB with a no. five overall pick. Made no sense to me then. MLB or SSLB maybe, not a WLB. There were several WLB prospects comparable to Hawk that year like Ryans and MacIntosh and Howard. You could have traded down if that was the object.
2.) Most people think Hawk had peaked as a college player. He did not have the kind of raw ability that still had room to grow like say Merriman or Ware. Who, BTW, went lower in the draft.
It does not make TT smart to have taken AR when he did. When the idiot GM's decided Smith was a better prospect, the word got out and the mock drafts began to change. It then got to be, well who needed either a QB or a back up the most. Many teams figured it was GB and they penciled him in to go to GB. THat is why TT started to do a lot of work on him. BTW, TT admitted this after the draft.
I was not comparing TT to Wolf just in number ones. I was comparing him to Wolf overall. BUt TT's strength is supposed to be college draft evaluation. He has not been that good.
Harrell was a clear reach. I mean, with that injury history, forget it as a first rounder. Again, there were other DT prospects he could have taken, like Tank Tyler.
We do not have a real good safety contingent. Which is why we got Smith. Bigby is coming off an injury riddled year and is not good in pass coverage. Peprah is a back up. Collins has had one good year out of four. He should have taken Phillips.
The thing most people like about Wolf, is that he was daring. WHen he perceived a need he went out and filled it. When he saw an opportunity he grabbed it. No one will ever beat the trifecta he pulled in one year: hiring Holmgren, trading for Favre, and getting White in FA for the biggest FA contract in history at the time. TT has not done anything like those moves yet.
So far, I consider him average.
1.) At the time he was chosen, GB was in a 4-3. He was going to play WLB then. You don't pick a WLB with a no. five overall pick. Made no sense to me then. MLB or SSLB maybe, not a WLB. There were several WLB prospects comparable to Hawk that year like Ryans and MacIntosh and Howard. You could have traded down if that was the object.
2.) Most people think Hawk had peaked as a college player. He did not have the kind of raw ability that still had room to grow like say Merriman or Ware. Who, BTW, went lower in the draft.
It does not make TT smart to have taken AR when he did. When the idiot GM's decided Smith was a better prospect, the word got out and the mock drafts began to change. It then got to be, well who needed either a QB or a back up the most. Many teams figured it was GB and they penciled him in to go to GB. THat is why TT started to do a lot of work on him. BTW, TT admitted this after the draft.
I was not comparing TT to Wolf just in number ones. I was comparing him to Wolf overall. BUt TT's strength is supposed to be college draft evaluation. He has not been that good.
Harrell was a clear reach. I mean, with that injury history, forget it as a first rounder. Again, there were other DT prospects he could have taken, like Tank Tyler.
We do not have a real good safety contingent. Which is why we got Smith. Bigby is coming off an injury riddled year and is not good in pass coverage. Peprah is a back up. Collins has had one good year out of four. He should have taken Phillips.
The thing most people like about Wolf, is that he was daring. WHen he perceived a need he went out and filled it. When he saw an opportunity he grabbed it. No one will ever beat the trifecta he pulled in one year: hiring Holmgren, trading for Favre, and getting White in FA for the biggest FA contract in history at the time. TT has not done anything like those moves yet.
So far, I consider him average.
You are trying to turn what was a huge draft day steal into a negative for TT. Its mindboggling. He could have easily passed on AR like every other team had up to that point and drafted a defensive player since our defense was terrible at that point.
TT took a ton of heat locally for drafting backup QB instead of a defensive player in case you've forgotten what the reaction was to that pick at the time.
TT took a ton of heat locally for drafting backup QB instead of a defensive player in case you've forgotten what the reaction was to that pick at the time.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 16 2009, 01:23 PM)
There is no way TT approaches Wolf.
Really?
Looking at just the 1st and 2nd rounds in their first 5 years as GM.
Wolf (1992 – 96) missed on Terrell Buckley, Mark D’Onofrio, John Michaels, and Derrick Mayes.
Thompson (2005 – 09) has so far missed on Terrence Murphy, Justin Harrell, and Brian Brohm. Time will tell with Raji and Matthews.
If you look on to the 3rd round…
Wolf: LeShon Johnson
Thompson: Abdul Hodge
Looks pretty damn close to me.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 17 2009, 05:15 AM)
Hawk was a predictable mistake in two ways:
1.) At the time he was chosen, GB was in a 4-3. He was going to play WLB then. You don't pick a WLB with a no. five overall pick. Made no sense to me then. MLB or SSLB maybe, not a WLB. There were several WLB prospects comparable to Hawk that year like Ryans and MacIntosh and Howard. You could have traded down if that was the object.
2.) Most people think Hawk had peaked as a college player. He did not have the kind of raw ability that still had room to grow like say Merriman or Ware. Who, BTW, went lower in the draft.
"Most people"??? Really? Any sources? I do not remember hearing that...so please do share.
It does not make TT smart to have taken AR when he did. When the idiot GM's decided Smith was a better prospect, the word got out and the mock drafts began to change. It then got to be, well who needed either a QB or a back up the most. Many teams figured it was GB and they penciled him in to go to GB. THat is why TT started to do a lot of work on him. BTW, TT admitted this after the draft.
I was not comparing TT to Wolf just in number ones. I was comparing him to Wolf overall. BUt TT's strength is supposed to be college draft evaluation. He has not been that good.
Well, it sure looks like you MIGHT be trying to compare just number ones...because you chose to cherry pick Harrell and Hawk and only talk about those TT picks...and they both are #1 picks. Right?
Harrell was a clear reach. I mean, with that injury history, forget it as a first rounder. Again, there were other DT prospects he could have taken, like Tank Tyler.
We do not have a real good safety contingent. Which is why we got Smith. Bigby is coming off an injury riddled year and is not good in pass coverage. Peprah is a back up. Collins has had one good year out of four. He should have taken Phillips. Collins may have only had one good year, but that's one more than Phillips...so you go with the guy whose more proven...and knows your system. Yes, Bigby was hurt...and so could likely be better this year...like the player he was in '07.
The thing most people like about Wolf, is that he was daring. WHen he perceived a need he went out and filled it. When he saw an opportunity he grabbed it. No one will ever beat the trifecta he pulled in one year: hiring Holmgren, trading for Favre, and getting White in FA for the biggest FA contract in history at the time. TT has not done anything like those moves yet.
He didn't get this trivecta in one year...White came later. AND I notice you conveniently forgot that the year he got Favre, he used the $5 overall for Buckley - to use your own words...be daring...and was a flop (versus Troy Vincent, the more steady proven player that people wanted him to take at that spot). Wolf also gave up a #2 pick to get Holmgren, which was extortion as Holmgren was going into a promotion (to Head Coach from QB coach) so should have been free to leave the 49ers. Wolf simply gave up this #2 pick - what, the #37 overall? Not good management.
Remember, too, that Wolf did not have to work within the same cap management atmosphere like TT and the rest do today.
So far, I consider him average.
1.) At the time he was chosen, GB was in a 4-3. He was going to play WLB then. You don't pick a WLB with a no. five overall pick. Made no sense to me then. MLB or SSLB maybe, not a WLB. There were several WLB prospects comparable to Hawk that year like Ryans and MacIntosh and Howard. You could have traded down if that was the object.
2.) Most people think Hawk had peaked as a college player. He did not have the kind of raw ability that still had room to grow like say Merriman or Ware. Who, BTW, went lower in the draft.
"Most people"??? Really? Any sources? I do not remember hearing that...so please do share.
It does not make TT smart to have taken AR when he did. When the idiot GM's decided Smith was a better prospect, the word got out and the mock drafts began to change. It then got to be, well who needed either a QB or a back up the most. Many teams figured it was GB and they penciled him in to go to GB. THat is why TT started to do a lot of work on him. BTW, TT admitted this after the draft.
I was not comparing TT to Wolf just in number ones. I was comparing him to Wolf overall. BUt TT's strength is supposed to be college draft evaluation. He has not been that good.
Well, it sure looks like you MIGHT be trying to compare just number ones...because you chose to cherry pick Harrell and Hawk and only talk about those TT picks...and they both are #1 picks. Right?
Harrell was a clear reach. I mean, with that injury history, forget it as a first rounder. Again, there were other DT prospects he could have taken, like Tank Tyler.
We do not have a real good safety contingent. Which is why we got Smith. Bigby is coming off an injury riddled year and is not good in pass coverage. Peprah is a back up. Collins has had one good year out of four. He should have taken Phillips. Collins may have only had one good year, but that's one more than Phillips...so you go with the guy whose more proven...and knows your system. Yes, Bigby was hurt...and so could likely be better this year...like the player he was in '07.
The thing most people like about Wolf, is that he was daring. WHen he perceived a need he went out and filled it. When he saw an opportunity he grabbed it. No one will ever beat the trifecta he pulled in one year: hiring Holmgren, trading for Favre, and getting White in FA for the biggest FA contract in history at the time. TT has not done anything like those moves yet.
He didn't get this trivecta in one year...White came later. AND I notice you conveniently forgot that the year he got Favre, he used the $5 overall for Buckley - to use your own words...be daring...and was a flop (versus Troy Vincent, the more steady proven player that people wanted him to take at that spot). Wolf also gave up a #2 pick to get Holmgren, which was extortion as Holmgren was going into a promotion (to Head Coach from QB coach) so should have been free to leave the 49ers. Wolf simply gave up this #2 pick - what, the #37 overall? Not good management.
Remember, too, that Wolf did not have to work within the same cap management atmosphere like TT and the rest do today.
So far, I consider him average.
It's fine you consider him average...you're certainly entitled to your opinion. THe more it's based on facts and specifics fairly compaired, the more credibility it has with me. TT, the 07 GM of the year, has done a fine job IMHO.
Ayt: I thought AR was the best QB in the draft that year and he was worth a top ten pick. So I never considered him a steal where we took him.
Jim ATX: I was talking about TT as an overall GM. Not just the draft. But even if you compare drafts, Wolf was very good in the middle ranges which is where he got people like Levens and Freeman. So IMO, Wolf was not just the better drafter, but the better overall GM.
Dave Kenya: Mark S on ESPN had some reservations about Hawk as a blitzer in the NFL. He turned out to be right.
When I said Wolf was better it was after my overall analysis especially where I mentioned the OL.
Phillips will end up being better than Bigby, and probably as good or better than Collins.He was probably the best safety prospect in the draft that year.
As per Buckley vs, Vincent, I agree that was a mistake. But no GM picks perfectly. You go with the overall record. Wolf had an above average overall record in his drafts.
Holmgren was worth whatever we gave up for him. Since he was the best coach in GB since Lombardi. Plus, he got the best out of Favre. Favre was a mess in Atlanta. Holmgren helped him become an All Pro.
Holmgren came to GB in 1992, so did Favre, White in 1993. Looks pretty much like a year to me. Unless you want to argue a few months.
Jim ATX: I was talking about TT as an overall GM. Not just the draft. But even if you compare drafts, Wolf was very good in the middle ranges which is where he got people like Levens and Freeman. So IMO, Wolf was not just the better drafter, but the better overall GM.
Dave Kenya: Mark S on ESPN had some reservations about Hawk as a blitzer in the NFL. He turned out to be right.
When I said Wolf was better it was after my overall analysis especially where I mentioned the OL.
Phillips will end up being better than Bigby, and probably as good or better than Collins.He was probably the best safety prospect in the draft that year.
As per Buckley vs, Vincent, I agree that was a mistake. But no GM picks perfectly. You go with the overall record. Wolf had an above average overall record in his drafts.
Holmgren was worth whatever we gave up for him. Since he was the best coach in GB since Lombardi. Plus, he got the best out of Favre. Favre was a mess in Atlanta. Holmgren helped him become an All Pro.
Holmgren came to GB in 1992, so did Favre, White in 1993. Looks pretty much like a year to me. Unless you want to argue a few months.
I am/have been ane will continue to be a Ted Thompson supporter. For those that have been here on PC for a while know that and I make no bones about it. As much as I support him though, he does have his flaws as a GM.
Thompson has a plan that he sticks to, almost to a fault. He has a certain price tag for a player and will not, or shall I say very rarely go higher then that dollar amount. That is part of the reason it seems to be a long and painful off season when it come to landing big name free agents. When it come to player evaluation, Thompson is in the upper half of NFL GM's, though his first round grades (excluding Raji and Matthews) are not great. Rodgers has the look of a super star, but Hawk has been average at best and is not the playmaker you would want to take 5th overall. Harrell has been a bust let's not make no bones about it. But in round 2 he is MONEY!
I could care less if he is "media friendly". His job is to put the best team on the field year in and year out while maintaining a budget. He cleaned up a team that was old and was a salary cap mess and transformed them into a team that went 13-3 being the youngest team in the NFL. He also guided the Packers though one of the toughest times, letting Brett Favre go in favor of Rodgers. He didn't handle it well, but he was right when it came to Favre, like it or not.
This is a big year for him and we will see how he responds. I have faith in him.
Thompson has a plan that he sticks to, almost to a fault. He has a certain price tag for a player and will not, or shall I say very rarely go higher then that dollar amount. That is part of the reason it seems to be a long and painful off season when it come to landing big name free agents. When it come to player evaluation, Thompson is in the upper half of NFL GM's, though his first round grades (excluding Raji and Matthews) are not great. Rodgers has the look of a super star, but Hawk has been average at best and is not the playmaker you would want to take 5th overall. Harrell has been a bust let's not make no bones about it. But in round 2 he is MONEY!
I could care less if he is "media friendly". His job is to put the best team on the field year in and year out while maintaining a budget. He cleaned up a team that was old and was a salary cap mess and transformed them into a team that went 13-3 being the youngest team in the NFL. He also guided the Packers though one of the toughest times, letting Brett Favre go in favor of Rodgers. He didn't handle it well, but he was right when it came to Favre, like it or not.
This is a big year for him and we will see how he responds. I have faith in him.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 16 2009, 11:48 PM)
I thought AR was the best QB in the draft that year and he was worth a top ten pick. So I never considered him a steal where we took him.
You thought he was the best QB in the draft and worthy of a top ten pick. He was selected at #24.
What exactly is your working definition of a steal?
QUOTE (rob836 @ Aug 15 2009, 07:10 AM)
"Why so negative"?...
It is hard to be negative after clubbing the Browns in a pre season game but let's see how we do aginst some really good teams this year. So far, I am liking the team TT has put together, at least on offense.
Best "ever" GM in Packer history? No. Not yet, anyway......
QUOTE (LambeauLeap @ Aug 16 2009, 11:08 PM)
You thought he was the best QB in the draft and worthy of a top ten pick. He was selected at #24.
What exactly is your working definition of a steal?
What exactly is your working definition of a steal?
That wasn't what the argument was about.
What I was saying was that AR fell to TT because everyone took a stupid pill and, in the last two weeks, rated Smith as the best QB in the draft and AR as another product of the Tedford system. This included MM I beleive, who was with SF at the time I think.
Once that happened, everyone adjusted their mock draft in order to refit AR. The first team that needed a QB or backup was GB. Several mocks then slotted AR to GB. And that is when TT started looking at film of him and getting more reports on him. As I said, he later admitted this.
I thought all the above was just dumb--herd mentality stuff. I had seen AR twice against USC, and thought he outplayed Leinart in both games.. I thought he was better than Smith since 1.) He played a pro system, and 2.) He played better competition.
If it would have been me, I don't think I would have risked waiting and having him fall to me. TT did. And he was lucky everyone took the stupid pill.
TT is nothing more than an average GM. How many of the players he's drafted have had Pro Bowl type seasons? I'm not saying been to the Pro Bowl, I mean deserve to go. Jennings, Rodgers, Collins (who has been to the PB)...anyone else? Don't think so. He drafts good players that contribute and do help the team, but they aren't game changers. And don't get me started on Rodgers. He fell right into TT's lap. That was a no brainer at the time. I hope more players he drafted become great with time, but as of right now, he's just about an average GM.
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 17 2009, 12:53 PM)
TT is nothing more than an average GM. How many of the players he's drafted have had Pro Bowl type seasons? I'm not saying been to the Pro Bowl, I mean deserve to go. Jennings, Rodgers, Collins (who has been to the PB)...anyone else? Don't think so. He drafts good players that contribute and do help the team, but they aren't game changers. And don't get me started on Rodgers. He fell right into TT's lap. That was a no brainer at the time. I hope more players he drafted become great with time, but as of right now, he's just about an average GM.
I agree that at this point Thompson is an average GM but not for the reason that you state. IMO, he is an average GM because of his W - L record and IMO he will never pass Wolf until he puts together a Superbowl team.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
QUOTE (Cocoman @ Aug 18 2009, 01:17 AM)
I agree that at this point Thompson is an average GM but not for the reason that you state. IMO, he is an average GM because of his W - L record and IMO he will never pass Wolf until he puts together a Superbowl team.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
JMO but I think that 2 things may have played into this. Tedford did not have a history of producing NFL QB's. Also there was a perception, right or wrong that the conference (Pac 10) was weak especially on the defensive side of the ball and his numbers were "padded" because of that. He was perceived a "system" QB by some. S
QUOTE (Cocoman @ Aug 18 2009, 12:17 AM)
I agree that at this point Thompson is an average GM but not for the reason that you state. IMO, he is an average GM because of his W - L record and IMO he will never pass Wolf until he puts together a Superbowl team.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
So then why didn't TT trade up to get Rodgers? To me it was a no brainer because Favre wasn't getting any younger and the team really had no QB to develop.
TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two. Then maybe we can discuss TT compared to Wolf.
QUOTE (packinatl @ Aug 17 2009, 01:30 PM)
JMO but I think that 2 things may have played into this. Tedford did not have a history of producing NFL QB's. Also there was a perception, right or wrong that the conference (Pac 10) was weak especially on the defensive side of the ball and his numbers were "padded" because of that. He was perceived a "system" QB by some. S
Exactly, Rodgers was a good prospect but there were legitimate concerns about him as an NFL QB. Thompson made the right call so that's why I think he deserves some credit for this pick.
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 17 2009, 01:37 PM)
So then why didn't TT trade up to get Rodgers?
He didn't have to. He took a risk that Rodgers would last and it worked, why not give him some credit? He played this pick correctly and so far it looks like a home run.
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 17 2009, 01:37 PM)
To me it was a no brainer because Favre wasn't getting any younger and the team really had no QB to develop.
This was my opinion at the time but it wasn't the only opinion. I remember Steve Young saying during ESPN's draft coverage that Favre should demand a trade and it was obvious that Green Bay was moving on with out him. During last years Favre saga, this pick came up several times as proof that Thompson was trying to shove Favre out the door. There were many fans & experts who thought that the pick should have been used to help Favre get one more shot at a Superbowl.
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 17 2009, 01:37 PM)
TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two. Then maybe we can discuss TT compared to Wolf.
I agree completely with this.
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 17 2009, 05:53 PM)
TT is nothing more than an average GM. How many of the players he's drafted have had Pro Bowl type seasons? I'm not saying been to the Pro Bowl, I mean deserve to go. Jennings, Rodgers, Collins (who has been to the PB)...anyone else? Don't think so. He drafts good players that contribute and do help the team, but they aren't game changers. And don't get me started on Rodgers. He fell right into TT's lap. That was a no brainer at the time. I hope more players he drafted become great with time, but as of right now, he's just about an average GM.
TT has drafted the best of any GM in the NFL since he has been in Green Bay. Compare the talent he has brought in to Steelers, Patriots, and the Giants, and TT has done as well as them if not better.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
QUOTE (cheesner @ Aug 18 2009, 02:19 AM)
TT has drafted the best of any GM in the NFL since he has been in Green Bay. Compare the talent he has brought in to Steelers, Patriots, and the Giants, and TT has done as well as them if not better.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
Last I checked but the 3 teams you have mentioned have lifted the Lombardi Tropy since Ted has been here so those other GM's must have been doing something right
QUOTE (cheesner @ Aug 18 2009, 02:19 AM)
TT has drafted the best of any GM in the NFL since he has been in Green Bay. Compare the talent he has brought in to Steelers, Patriots, and the Giants, and TT has done as well as them if not better.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
Just as info, since 2005
Justin Tuck
Brandon Jacobs
Philip Rivers (got them Manning)
Mathias Kiwanuka
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Kevin Boss
ALL Key players in their SB run
QUOTE (cheesner @ Aug 18 2009, 01:19 AM)
TT has drafted the best of any GM in the NFL since he has been in Green Bay. Compare the talent he has brought in to Steelers, Patriots, and the Giants, and TT has done as well as them if not better.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
So we're gonna win the Super Bowl this year right? I mean if you say he's drafted the best of any GM, that means this year is the year. Those other teams you mentioned have all won SB's the last few seasons.
QUOTE (rob836 @ Aug 15 2009, 06:10 AM)
Fan's who say something negative about TT can't back it up...And when you ask them too "all you here is crickets"...
Is that so?
How about the fact that he's drafted a kazillion offensive linemen and we're still playing musical chairs trying to figure out who's the least prone to screwing up at a given position?
As for the backing it up part... I guess I'd have to say W/L record
QUOTE (Heatseeker @ Aug 18 2009, 02:34 AM)
Is that so?
How about the fact that he's drafted a kazillion offensive linemen and we're still playing musical chairs trying to figure out who's the least prone to screwing up at a given position?
As for the backing it up part... I guess I'd have to say W/L record
How about the fact that he's drafted a kazillion offensive linemen and we're still playing musical chairs trying to figure out who's the least prone to screwing up at a given position?
As for the backing it up part... I guess I'd have to say W/L record
No... He's still the best GM out there! (very sarcastic BTW)
QUOTE (Cocoman @ Aug 17 2009, 02:17 PM)
I agree that at this point Thompson is an average GM but not for the reason that you state. IMO, he is an average GM because of his W - L record and IMO he will never pass Wolf until he puts together a Superbowl team.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
I do however completely disagree on Rodgers. Yes, Rodgers was a no-brainer but so was Hawk and so was Mandrich for that matter. People don't let GM's off the hook we their "No-Brainer" picks fail so why not give them credit when they succeed. I understand that no team needed a QB before the Packers pick but if everyone saw how good he was, why did no one trade up to get him? Their were rumors that Green Bay might take him, so that selection wasn't a surprise.
Also, it should be remembered that the drafting of Rodgers was viewed by many experts, fans and according to some reports even Favre as an insult to Favre. IIRC, there were lots of people complaining that Thompson wasted a pick on player that wouldn't give Favre any help that year.
He made the right call with Rodgers after many teams didn't. Was he lucky that Rodgers was there? Yes - but give the guy some credit making the correct decision.
I have heard this before, that Favre felt insulted that TT would pick a QB in the first round. Favre kinda brought this upon himself. Had he not publically hemmed and hawwed about returning maybe TT wouldn't have felt the need to make sure he had someone to eventually take over that most important position on the team. And I find it incredible that a player of Favre's stature and reknown would feel threatened by some wet behind the ears QB!
QUOTE (Pugger @ Aug 17 2009, 03:43 PM)
I have heard this before, that Favre felt insulted that TT would pick a QB in the first round. Favre kinda brought this upon himself. Had he not publically hemmed and hawwed about returning maybe TT wouldn't have felt the need to make sure he had someone to eventually take over that most important position on the team. And I find it incredible that a player of Favre's stature and reknown would feel threatened by some wet behind the ears QB!
That's why I included "according to some reports". I am not sure whether I believe it or not, it does seem a little ridiculous. The larger point was that there was critisism from many area's about the Rodgers pick at the time.
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 18 2009, 12:37 AM)
So then why didn't TT trade up to get Rodgers? To me it was a no brainer because Favre wasn't getting any younger and the team really had no QB to develop.
TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two. Then maybe we can discuss TT compared to Wolf.
TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two. Then maybe we can discuss TT compared to Wolf.
Out of curiosity by your logic had we won the SB two years ago before Favre threw yet another ill timed pass that landed in a Giant Defenders waiting frozen mitts, and should we have been able to do the unthinkable (like the Giants did) and defeat the Pats, and then even if we had the season like we did last year, (even though TT would have equalled Wolfs SB total) he would not be in the same Calibre? because you had mentioned at the end ..TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two.
So by your logic he was Brett Favre away from being one of the greatest GM's in Packer history. Well no wonder TT ran Brett out of town.
Umm other than Brett and Reggie who else could be on the list of players that Wolf got that changed the game forever? The kind of players you are accusing TT of not having. The rest of Wolfs guys were solid players and the TEAM was good which is exactly what TT is trying to build, competition at each position so the cream rises to the top. Right out of Wolfs playbook.
QUOTE (JCro @ Aug 18 2009, 04:28 AM)
Out of curiosity by your logic had we won the SB two years ago before Favre threw yet another ill timed pass that landed in a Giant Defenders waiting frozen mitts, and should we have been able to do the unthinkable (like the Giants did) and defeat the Pats, and then even if we had the season like we did last year, (even though TT would have equalled Wolfs SB total) he would not be in the same Calibre? because you had mentioned at the end ..TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two.
So by your logic he was Brett Favre away from being one of the greatest GM's in Packer history. Well no wonder TT ran Brett out of town.
Umm other than Brett and Reggie who else could be on the list of players that Wolf got that changed the game forever? The kind of players you are accusing TT of not having. The rest of Wolfs guys were solid players and the TEAM was good which is exactly what TT is trying to build, competition at each position so the cream rises to the top. Right out of Wolfs playbook.
So by your logic he was Brett Favre away from being one of the greatest GM's in Packer history. Well no wonder TT ran Brett out of town.
Umm other than Brett and Reggie who else could be on the list of players that Wolf got that changed the game forever? The kind of players you are accusing TT of not having. The rest of Wolfs guys were solid players and the TEAM was good which is exactly what TT is trying to build, competition at each position so the cream rises to the top. Right out of Wolfs playbook.
Did we win the SB 2 years ago? NO! Would we have beaten the Pats???? WHO KNOWS. WHAT IF...WHAT IF...WHAT IF...
QUOTE (PackerJB @ Aug 17 2009, 01:11 PM)
So we're gonna win the Super Bowl this year right? I mean if you say he's drafted the best of any GM, that means this year is the year. Those other teams you mentioned have all won SB's the last few seasons.
We were on our way to the Super Bowl but then TT threw that ill fated pass to Donald Driver and ...
QUOTE (Staggers @ Aug 18 2009, 05:59 AM)
We were on our way to the Super Bowl but then TT threw that ill fated pass to Donald Driver and ...
Haha. You're right. Cuz TT has only been here for that 1 season. All Favre's fault. So what about the other seasons? Who's to blame for those?
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 17 2009, 10:49 AM)
That wasn't what the argument was about.
What I was saying was that AR fell to TT because everyone took a stupid pill and, in the last two weeks, rated Smith as the best QB in the draft and AR as another product of the Tedford system. This included MM I beleive, who was with SF at the time I think.
Once that happened, everyone adjusted their mock draft in order to refit AR. The first team that needed a QB or backup was GB. Several mocks then slotted AR to GB. And that is when TT started looking at film of him and getting more reports on him. As I said, he later admitted this.
I thought all the above was just dumb--herd mentality stuff. I had seen AR twice against USC, and thought he outplayed Leinart in both games.. I thought he was better than Smith since 1.) He played a pro system, and 2.) He played better competition.
If it would have been me, I don't think I would have risked waiting and having him fall to me. TT did. And he was lucky everyone took the stupid pill.
What I was saying was that AR fell to TT because everyone took a stupid pill and, in the last two weeks, rated Smith as the best QB in the draft and AR as another product of the Tedford system. This included MM I beleive, who was with SF at the time I think.
Once that happened, everyone adjusted their mock draft in order to refit AR. The first team that needed a QB or backup was GB. Several mocks then slotted AR to GB. And that is when TT started looking at film of him and getting more reports on him. As I said, he later admitted this.
I thought all the above was just dumb--herd mentality stuff. I had seen AR twice against USC, and thought he outplayed Leinart in both games.. I thought he was better than Smith since 1.) He played a pro system, and 2.) He played better competition.
If it would have been me, I don't think I would have risked waiting and having him fall to me. TT did. And he was lucky everyone took the stupid pill.
Yeah. I'm sure GM's didn't pick AR based on mock drafts.
One of the more bizarre posts I've seen on here in awhile.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 17 2009, 10:49 AM)
That wasn't what the argument was about.
What I was saying was that AR fell to TT because everyone took a stupid pill and, in the last two weeks, rated Smith as the best QB in the draft and AR as another product of the Tedford system. This included MM I beleive, who was with SF at the time I think.
Once that happened, everyone adjusted their mock draft in order to refit AR. The first team that needed a QB or backup was GB. Several mocks then slotted AR to GB. And that is when TT started looking at film of him and getting more reports on him. As I said, he later admitted this.
I thought all the above was just dumb--herd mentality stuff. I had seen AR twice against USC, and thought he outplayed Leinart in both games.. I thought he was better than Smith since 1.) He played a pro system, and 2.) He played better competition.
If it would have been me, I don't think I would have risked waiting and having him fall to me. TT did. And he was lucky everyone took the stupid pill.
What I was saying was that AR fell to TT because everyone took a stupid pill and, in the last two weeks, rated Smith as the best QB in the draft and AR as another product of the Tedford system. This included MM I beleive, who was with SF at the time I think.
Once that happened, everyone adjusted their mock draft in order to refit AR. The first team that needed a QB or backup was GB. Several mocks then slotted AR to GB. And that is when TT started looking at film of him and getting more reports on him. As I said, he later admitted this.
I thought all the above was just dumb--herd mentality stuff. I had seen AR twice against USC, and thought he outplayed Leinart in both games.. I thought he was better than Smith since 1.) He played a pro system, and 2.) He played better competition.
If it would have been me, I don't think I would have risked waiting and having him fall to me. TT did. And he was lucky everyone took the stupid pill.
Yeah. I'm sure GM's didn't pick AR based on mock drafts. By your logic steals never happen since the GMs that passed on the players took "stupid pills." Moss wasn't a steal. Ray Lewis wasn't a steal. The GMs that passed on them were just dumb and the GM that picked them were just less dumb.
You simultaneously hold the position that SF should have taken AR with the #1 overall pick on one hand while arguing that he's not a steal at the #24 pick on the other. To top it off, you probably would be arguing AR was a steal if TT had traded up to get him rather than picking him at #24. One of the more bizarre posts I've seen on here in awhile.
Ayt: I admire TT for admitting that he did not think AR would fall that far. Few people did.
So when he realized that he could, he really did a lot of work on him.
Nothing bizarre about that.
So when he realized that he could, he really did a lot of work on him.
Nothing bizarre about that.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 16 2009, 11:48 PM)
Jim ATX: I was talking about TT as an overall GM. Not just the draft. But even if you compare drafts, Wolf was very good in the middle ranges which is where he got people like Levens and Freeman. So IMO, Wolf was not just the better drafter, but the better overall GM.
I used the draft because the league has changed so much that the draft is the closest thing to a constant between the two eras. Wolf has said as much himself in regards to GM'ing in the current FA world of the NFL. He said he could still scout and evaluate college talent, but dealing with agents and players today he couldn't handle. Thompson seems to have that (player/agent negotiations) covered quite well.
Thompsons middle to late rounds are pretty solid as well: Starters or strong contributors - Poppinga, Spitz, Blackmon, Jones, Rouse, Barbre, Hall, Bishop, Crosby, Finley, Thompson, Sitton
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 17 2009, 12:49 PM)
What I was saying was that AR fell to TT because everyone took a stupid pill and, in the last two weeks, rated Smith as the best QB in the draft and AR as another product of the Tedford system. This included MM I beleive, who was with SF at the time I think.
I agree to an extent. First of all, I agree that Rodgers looked like, hands down, the best QB in that draft. I also agree that MM was fully on board with Alex Smith. Smith looks the part of a WCO QB every bit as much as Brian Brohm looks the part; with the increased emphasis on athleticism and intelligence, and less emphasis on arm-strength.
However, there were people who had Campbell rated higher than Rodgers (and/or Smith); so I think that Ted deserves some props for not swallowing the "Tedford-Product" stupid-pill, and also for not over-rating Campbell in relation to Rodgers. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king;" and all that jazz...
QUOTE (JCro @ Aug 17 2009, 03:28 PM)
Umm other than Brett and Reggie who else could be on the list of players that Wolf got that changed the game forever? The kind of players you are accusing TT of not having. The rest of Wolfs guys were solid players and the TEAM was good which is exactly what TT is trying to build, competition at each position so the cream rises to the top. Right out of Wolfs playbook.
Outside of Brett and Reggie? How many people can top that? White IMO was the best all around DE ever.
Favre was a top ten all time QB.
Plus they both had longevity. White probably could have played another year for GB. How do you equal something like that?
But outside of those two master strokes, Wolf actually put together the best DL in GB since Lombardi. Outside of White, he got Brown, Dotson, and Sean Jones. Jones is not HOF quality, but he was a very good DE.
In looking back at his 9 drafts (I don't count the last since that was a coop deal with Sherman), he did something remarkable. In three of them, he drafted five guys who eventually became starters: 1995, 1999, 2000. Granted, there were more picks in 1995, but still that is something. In 1993 and 1996 he bagged four guys who became starters.
The Pro Bowl is a political type of measurement that is not really reliable. But if granted some license, one can say that Wolf drafted "Pro Bowl type" players 17 times in 9 years:
Brooks, Chmura, Brunnell, Evans, Levens, Henderson, Freeman, Timmerman, Flanagan, Rivera, Sharper, Hasselback, Wahle, McKenzie, Driver, Clifton, Tauscher.
That is a remarkable record. When you add in the trades, FA signings, Holmgren, his playoff record and going to two SB's--that is something.
TT has not even approached it yet.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 17 2009, 10:44 PM)
The Pro Bowl is a political type of measurement that is not really reliable. But if granted some license, one can say that Wolf drafted "Pro Bowl type" players 17 times in 9 years:
Brooks, Chmura, Brunnell, Evans, Levens, Henderson, Freeman, Timmerman, Flanagan, Rivera, Sharper, Hasselback, Wahle, McKenzie, Driver, Clifton, Tauscher.
That is a remarkable record. When you add in the trades, FA signings, Holmgren, his playoff record and going to two SB's--that is something.
Brooks, Chmura, Brunnell, Evans, Levens, Henderson, Freeman, Timmerman, Flanagan, Rivera, Sharper, Hasselback, Wahle, McKenzie, Driver, Clifton, Tauscher.
That is a remarkable record. When you add in the trades, FA signings, Holmgren, his playoff record and going to two SB's--that is something.
You want to really see how remarkable Wolf was? When Wolf retired from the Packers, Joel Buchsbaum pointed out that the Raiders had two periods where their drafting was virtually unmatched. Both took place when Wolf was with the organization. During the years that he wasn't in their War Room, they've always struggled mightily.
I think that Wolf should be in the Hall of Fame, as a contributor. We were very fortunate to have him as a member of the Packer family.
I think the jury's still out on TT, but at this point his draft of AR is a solid point in his favor. And no, it wasn't a no-brainer. Even at the beginning of last season, a talk show host in Madison was still arguing that the pick of AR was a mistake, because "you never spend a 1st rounder on a guy who's going to sit on your bench" (forgetting that Wolfe traded a 1st rounder for Favre, thinking that Favre would sit on the bench for at least one season.)
It took some guts to spend a 1st pick on a future, rather than an immediate, need and TT should be credited for that.
Oh, and he was also right on the money last year during the Favre saga. He should get props for that too.
It took some guts to spend a 1st pick on a future, rather than an immediate, need and TT should be credited for that.
Oh, and he was also right on the money last year during the Favre saga. He should get props for that too.
QUOTE (Gregg @ Aug 18 2009, 08:44 AM)
Outside of Brett and Reggie? How many people can top that? White IMO was the best all around DE ever.
Favre was a top ten all time QB.
Plus they both had longevity. White probably could have played another year for GB. How do you equal something like that?
But outside of those two master strokes, Wolf actually put together the best DL in GB since Lombardi. Outside of White, he got Brown, Dotson, and Sean Jones. Jones is not HOF quality, but he was a very good DE.
In looking back at his 9 drafts (I don't count the last since that was a coop deal with Sherman), he did something remarkable. In three of them, he drafted five guys who eventually became starters: 1995, 1999, 2000. Granted, there were more picks in 1995, but still that is something. In 1993 and 1996 he bagged four guys who became starters.
The Pro Bowl is a political type of measurement that is not really reliable. But if granted some license, one can say that Wolf drafted "Pro Bowl type" players 17 times in 9 years:
Brooks, Chmura, Brunnell, Evans, Levens, Henderson, Freeman, Timmerman, Flanagan, Rivera, Sharper, Hasselback, Wahle, McKenzie, Driver, Clifton, Tauscher.
That is a remarkable record. When you add in the trades, FA signings, Holmgren, his playoff record and going to two SB's--that is something.
TT has not even approached it yet.
Favre was a top ten all time QB.
Plus they both had longevity. White probably could have played another year for GB. How do you equal something like that?
But outside of those two master strokes, Wolf actually put together the best DL in GB since Lombardi. Outside of White, he got Brown, Dotson, and Sean Jones. Jones is not HOF quality, but he was a very good DE.
In looking back at his 9 drafts (I don't count the last since that was a coop deal with Sherman), he did something remarkable. In three of them, he drafted five guys who eventually became starters: 1995, 1999, 2000. Granted, there were more picks in 1995, but still that is something. In 1993 and 1996 he bagged four guys who became starters.
The Pro Bowl is a political type of measurement that is not really reliable. But if granted some license, one can say that Wolf drafted "Pro Bowl type" players 17 times in 9 years:
Brooks, Chmura, Brunnell, Evans, Levens, Henderson, Freeman, Timmerman, Flanagan, Rivera, Sharper, Hasselback, Wahle, McKenzie, Driver, Clifton, Tauscher.
That is a remarkable record. When you add in the trades, FA signings, Holmgren, his playoff record and going to two SB's--that is something.
TT has not even approached it yet.
No but when you look back say 10 years from now how many of the current players will you be able to say are very serviceable players and that is the point. Agreed Favre and Reggie were beyond comparison, and that point too was made, other than that, the players you listed were hardly 'GREAT' they were 'good', so to say he drafted starters is something too TT has done.
In time there will be a list that follows TT's name. I am not trying to mud up what Wolf did (hell I really enjoyed those years), but merely point out that aside from Favre and Reggie (both were trades not Draft related I should point out), his hit rate albeit higher than average may not be that far from what TT will do, if given time. Rodgers/Jennings/Woodson/Bigby is not a bad start to line up behind his name. Those are impact players and we haven't gotten to what Raji/Pickett/Matthews/Finley/Grant/Jones might just turn out to be.
You will never again see a player comparable in talent to Reggie White become available in todays NFL. Teams have many ways to keep those that they really want. If Jennings hadn't signed this year what do you think TT would have done next spring? Franchise anyone?And Jennings knew it too.
As for moving up for Rodgers, why would he. He didn't really want a quarterback but was wise enough to get a future starter at #24, thereby allowing the Packers to pay him much less money while he sat and learned, or if they discovered that he would never be an NFL starter.
There were many articles written by some very smart ex NFL insiders last spring about how GMs nowadays are trying to trade out of the top ten in the draft. They don't want any part of the high salaries for someone who has never played a down in the NFL. Believe me that there is no such thing as a can't miss player except in hindsight.
Does that mean that I think TT is a genius. Not at all. But I will say that I consider him to be very competent as a business executive which is a large part of his job description. Being a good to very good and tireless talent evaluator is a bonus.You can bet that the year TT won GM of the year, much of his support was because of the strong financial position he has put the Packers in,rather than the 13 wins.
As for moving up for Rodgers, why would he. He didn't really want a quarterback but was wise enough to get a future starter at #24, thereby allowing the Packers to pay him much less money while he sat and learned, or if they discovered that he would never be an NFL starter.
There were many articles written by some very smart ex NFL insiders last spring about how GMs nowadays are trying to trade out of the top ten in the draft. They don't want any part of the high salaries for someone who has never played a down in the NFL. Believe me that there is no such thing as a can't miss player except in hindsight.
Does that mean that I think TT is a genius. Not at all. But I will say that I consider him to be very competent as a business executive which is a large part of his job description. Being a good to very good and tireless talent evaluator is a bonus.You can bet that the year TT won GM of the year, much of his support was because of the strong financial position he has put the Packers in,rather than the 13 wins.
QUOTE (JCro @ Aug 17 2009, 05:28 PM)
Out of curiosity by your logic had we won the SB two years ago before Favre threw yet another ill timed pass that landed in a Giant Defenders waiting frozen mitts, and should we have been able to do the unthinkable (like the Giants did) and defeat the Pats, and then even if we had the season like we did last year, (even though TT would have equalled Wolfs SB total) he would not be in the same Calibre? because you had mentioned at the end ..TT won't be the best GM in Packers history, unless he wins a SB or two.
So by your logic he was Brett Favre away from being one of the greatest GM's in Packer history. Well no wonder TT ran Brett out of town.
Umm other than Brett and Reggie who else could be on the list of players that Wolf got that changed the game forever? The kind of players you are accusing TT of not having. The rest of Wolfs guys were solid players and the TEAM was good which is exactly what TT is trying to build, competition at each position so the cream rises to the top. Right out of Wolfs playbook.
So by your logic he was Brett Favre away from being one of the greatest GM's in Packer history. Well no wonder TT ran Brett out of town.
Umm other than Brett and Reggie who else could be on the list of players that Wolf got that changed the game forever? The kind of players you are accusing TT of not having. The rest of Wolfs guys were solid players and the TEAM was good which is exactly what TT is trying to build, competition at each position so the cream rises to the top. Right out of Wolfs playbook.
Thats asking a lot dont you think?
How many GM's have drafted players that changed the entire game of football for forever? Not many.
QUOTE (cheesner @ Aug 17 2009, 03:19 PM)
TT has drafted the best of any GM in the NFL since he has been in Green Bay. Compare the talent he has brought in to Steelers, Patriots, and the Giants, and TT has done as well as them if not better.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
Jennings, Rodgers, Collins are studs. Good players will include Colledge, Hawk, Jolly, Spitz, and Jones. Players like Sitton, Nelson, Finley, Bishop and others appear to be emerging this season.
*sigh*
GM's need to do more than just draft.
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