“I can’t understand this for the life of me,” Irvin said of the looming speculation and rumor that Favre will unretire to play for the Vikings. “I love Brett and I appreciate his competitiveness and I appreciate the times he didn’t listen to anyone. Because I remember the Monday night after he lost his father and everybody said, ‘Brett, don’t play. Just don’t play, Brett. It’s too tough for you.’ He didn’t listen. It was one of his greatest assets. He didn’t listen and he showed up and he played great and we have a memorable moment to remember on that Monday night, watching Brett Favre play that game because he did not listen to anyone.

“But the reality is now it’s time for him to start listening. His greatest asset is becoming his greatest liability. I hate the fact that you’re sitting here saying, ‘I want to go to Minnesota.’ You hate [Packers G.M.] Ted Thompson that much that you’re ready to kill each one of those Green Bay fans that cheered you on, that are going to put your kids through college? They made you the rich man that you are. Why kill them? Just let that thing go, Brett. Stay retired and you can make umpteen millions of dollars on number four jerseys in Green Bay.

“But if you go back to Green Bay wearing that Minnesota jersey? Oh, it’s a wrap, buddy. You lose your whole legacy with that.”

They where talking about this on the radio today. Last year all these current and former players where saying if Brett wants to play he should and the game is better with him. Now almost everyone is saying stay retired and that you don't have it anymore and will be playing for the wrong reasons and embarsses yourself.

Yep!!

I never thought I would do it, but I will.

I will use the words "Michael Irvin" and "insight" in the same sentence.

Yeah I've never liked Irvin very much but he is spot on with his comments. The second and third paragraphs really hit the nail on the head. Nothing can erase the fact that his countless millions of dollars were paid for by Packers fans that loved him for years. He can be upset at Thompson but does he really have to go so low as to play against the Packers as a Viking? A lot of Packers fans still liked Favre after the whole debacle last year and watched him and rooted for him as a Jet. This takes it to a whole different level. I don't think Favre is thinking this through. Recently Favre has struck me as being a very petty and childish man and far from being humble. He is the total opposite of what I used to remember him as.

He's completely right.

Shockingly enough, I tend to agree. Favre simply needs to stay retired, take that $20 million to be a part of the great Packers legacy and, when asked about his (still alleged) flirtation with the Vikings, to replay his first press conference with the Jets. Remember when he said something to the effect that "I was and always will think of myself as a Packer"? Enough of this nonsense. Favre was always afraid of being forced to retire. Last year, when the Jets were winning, he had thrown 19 TD's and 13 interceptions, and had completed just over 70% of his passes. This was in his "successful" phase! He should, indeed, "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". Time to fold 'em, big guy.

Now, one small caveat to Irvin's comments. The fans did not make Favre rich. The Packers and his own greatness made him rich, monetarily. The fans made him the face of a franchise and the object of adoration and adulation. I am really bothered by this blindness in Favre- the denial that it is time to move on, and try to mend his fences with the fan base that made him a football demi-god. Returning to Green Bay in purple would be the worst insult to the Packers since Randy Moss did his "fake moon" on a goalpost at Lambeau after catching a TD. Good grief, maybe its time for Bart Starr to give him a call, and try to talk some sense into him. One great Packers QB to another.

I agree his talent made him rich. However, last year I knew he would not go to the queens. This year, I am begginning to see favre as pathetic and kind of arrogant child. If he goes to the Vikes it is for one reason, to get back at TT. This is not a move of desire but of revenge. The people who pay for it are his fans, those of us who WERE going to canton to see him indiucted. If he goes to the queens his legacy is tripped in my mind and I will not be making that trip.

Irvin stated my feelings pretty darn close. This is probably a deal killer for Favre as a LEGENDARY packer. Great former packer player but not Kramer, Fuzzy or Nitschke.

You look at his drinking, vicodin, etc and may be this guy was just a hole the entire time. I am starting to question if we knew this guy or not.

My opinion. debate if you disagree.

Maybe the reality is that he's somewhere between the two perceptions and has been the entire time.


There wouldn't be any Packers in the first place if it weren't for fans - and I mean, paying fans and television watching fans. And I don't know what you mean by "his own greatness" or by primo's comment about "his talent". You mean the DNA he received from birth? You mean the upbringing by his father and mother? They weren't exactly his doing - they were gifts. Furthermore, quite aside from such considerations, they were not what made him rich, per se, not by themselves. His particular gifts were on offer at a particular moment in history when people were willing to pay huge amounts of money to encourage their display. But a lot of very gifted people have also died paupers, so it's inaccurate to suggest that this "greatness" you speak of is what brought him wealth, though it certainly contributed.

It's very simple, really. The money came from the fans. Where they got it is another question and not practical to pursue. But no fans, no television contracts, no Packers, and no wealthy Brett Favre (unless he found another way to make it).


I think that's an excellent question and one that we ought to pose to ourselves all the time. About our heroes, about our enemies, and about our friends.

Terry, I usually respect your opinions (OH OH), but this time I strongly disagree. True, in the "early days", the fans did matter- before television paid literally billions of dollars to broadcast the games, before stadiums had "naming rights", before there were skyboxes/suites, before this nonsense of "buying a seat" for an exorbitant price. Yes, in those olden days (and, at 59, I remember those days), the fans were important. Now? Forget it. Its sponsorship from corporations and the television networks that makes the league run. The NFL could play in empty stadiums and still make a big profit. As I stated, the fans offer something more- a sense of adulation that (I believe) everyone craves- and later (possibly) fears, because of stalkers, the papparrazi and their ilk.

By the bye, I was alive in the era where color television was a novelty, and a lot of Packers games weren't offered locally- you had to listen to them on radio. And I grew up about 60 miles south of Green Bay.

But Ricky, without the fans, there would be no television contracts or, arguably, corporate sponsorship.

Ok, there might be some corporate sponsorship, for community recognition, just the way corporations sponsor little league teams and the like. But not to the tune of that sort of money.

And no fans, no big television contracts either. Ok, granted, television viewership of NFL games spreads the responsibility to the fans of all other teams as well, granted. I mean, I guess it would be theoretically possible for Green Bay to have no fans whatsoever and still receive money, as long as all other teams were also possible.

None of it changes the essence of the calculation. Television and Corporations don't put out that huge money to be charitable. They do it for profit. Television because they can earn more revenue by showing games than it costs them to pay the NFL for the privilege - because of all the fans watching. Corporations for the name recognition and positive associations with the name - because of all the fans watching.

How big do you suppose the contracts were for the best players in the North American Soccer League have ever been? How big do you suppose they are now?

Good post and I agree 100%. If the fans mattered at all the commissioner wouldn't be desperately seeking an opportunity to play the Super Bowl overseas. Why would the NFL, the one true American sport, seek out an opportunity to help out other countries financially and completely ignore issues here at home?

I couldn't agree more. Irvin actually makes sense!

“But if you go back to Green Bay wearing that Minnesota jersey? Oh, it’s a wrap, buddy. You lose your whole legacy with that.”

Yep. What he said.

Terry, I should have known better. I agree. I thought you were talking about the fans who actually pay to see the games, not the consumers of the product. Point conceded. Thank you for the clarification.

Irvin's been saying this since last year when this whole confounded mess began. And he is right. My only guess is that some folks surrounding him are giving a big heap of revenge-talk.

We've definitely all been transported to some alternate reality when Irvin is making that much sense.

Thing is, I understand that Favre feels slighted by Thompson and the organization - I get that. He wanted to play and they didn't want him. He feels betrayed, and pissed off and wants to take it out on someone. That's being human.

But wanting to come back and play for the Vikings... I think there's actually a better way of going about, "getting revenge" than that even. Not like I want Favre to exact revenge against the organization at all, but if he wants to go about it in a more dignified way, simply say no to the endorsement deal that Murphy has said would still be on the table when Favre retires. Say that you want nothing to do with the team as long as Thompson is still there. To me, that would speak louder than playing for the Vikings would. And, it'd be far less embarrassing to boot.

Yes, but a year later? He's still that upset? He's like an old girlfriend that won't go away. Fatal Attraction Kiln-style. Lock up your bunny rabbits, Ted!

It goes on and on.

People seem to forget that TT was just the 'trigger man' who put the trade to the Jets together.

Mike McCarthy was the one who said Favre was not dedicated to return to the Packers months after Brett retired and the Packers moved on which any organization would have to do.

Sugar coating Brett just does not wash.

IMO of course.

Many times my response to Favre's critics has been, "Brett Favre is the best thing that has happened to the Packers in the past 25 years. "Still is."

But Michael Irvin is right. As much a die-hard Favre fan as I have been during his stay here, no longer. He's not the once humble, "aw, shucks" down to earth country boy that I once took him to be. And that's even before he would play a down for the Vikes on his own personal vendetta tour. If he does that he will lose me forever as a fan. As far as I'm concerned he could then go to Canton in a purple jersey instead of in green and gold. And if he comes to Lambeau as a Vike he would earn my total silence -- neither cheers nor boos. It would be symbolic of the nothingness I would feel for him as a player and a person. When he eventually goes to the Packer HOF or is included into the ring of honor, I will simply opt not to be present in GB as I had originally planned to be -- for certain if he becomes a Vike. I must add that I would feel the same if he became a Bear or Lion, too.

I fully concede that he has a right to play for any team, if he so chooses. But I also have a right to alter my opinion of he and his family as the events unfold (if his family is indeed the driving force behind his latest retirement dog and pony show).

But of course, it has nothing to do with being traded. Indeed, it has nothing really to do with Thompson at all. Not really. Favre is fighting his own demons and focusing the fight on Ted, the rationale being a couple of what are really relatively minor frustrations with him.

I have a neighbor like that. Ironically, also an athlete who had to give it up because of bad knees. Much, much fitter and younger than I. We had plenty of amicable dealings. Then one day he got ticked off and things went really weird. I mean irrationale and excessive beyond the pale. Now, granted, I'm not perfect and no doubt he had his legitimate minor irritations (though nothing in me was aimed at him personally). But somehow, I became the focus of all his vitriol, of all his frustrations with his life. To make it worse, I blundered into it without realizing what was going on and provoked it into something worse, which recoiled back on me badly, leading to some humiliation and frustration. At this point, if I were like him, it could become like the Hatfields and the McCoys. But I'm determined to get past my own frustrations without acting out. The thing is that some part of me is obsessed with making sense out of something that really doesn't make sense and that can be difficult to let go of.

Equally, I would guess Brett doesn't have the tools to understand and deal with his own frustrations. With him, it could be any number of things, but one could guess, for instance, that maybe there's some frustration in him that he couldn't wind up his career like Elway and in some way has some deep conflict that he couldn't continue to be king of the hill. So, out of the hundreds of reasons that lead to that, Thompson was involved in some way with a couple of them. One can almost see Brett, consciously or unconsciously, repeating the mantra over and over, "if only if only if only if only" as if the retention of Wahle, the hiring of Gruden, the contracting of Moss would have rectified his entire (in his head) failed second half of his career. By focusing this on a person, like Ted, it gives him a more focused target on a more practical level to vent his frustration; a target that can be acted upon. This is all guessing, of course. Only Brett could possibly know the answer to that and even at that, it could take a lot of digging within himself to unearth the roots of the thing.

But there's no point in responding logically to any of it, really. It's not a logical problem. It's a human problem, one of obsession and frustration and rage and, ultimately, a kind of self-hatred. (So-called "self-hatred" is not usually really about hating oneself actually, but more of some antipathy to oneself or a rejection of some portion of oneself.)

The GB fans, and GB made Favre.

There is something that gets lost in all this talk about Favre's talent and his achievements.

Favre was literally a benchwarmer who was going nowhere when Ron Wolf traded a number one pick for him. Glanville and the Falcons had no respect for him or appreciation of his ability.

It was Wolf who brought him to GB.

And then it was Holmgren who molded him into a real QB instead of being just a strong armed Billy Joe Tolliver type of thrower.

Not many QB's are that lucky to have a reversal like that so early in their careers.

Some people forget where they came from, and some never do.

Favre has forgotten all about it.

Well put. I strongly believe there will really never be a way to understand this. A series of events happened that led Favre to play elsewhere. Not all having to do with TT, many having to do with Favre. The common misperception that Brett is an everyday man makes it harder for fans. He's not an everday person. He wouldn't sit with you and have a beer if you saw him at a bar. He would likely ignore you. We don't know him, we never did. I'm not discounting the fact that he's probably a good human being and he was a great qb and football player. He's an ironman. As far as I'm concerned everything I've seen from him these past 2 years has been about him and his obvious struggles coming to grips with reality.

Oh, and if he puts on a purple uni he's dead to me.

But won't it be great to see a Vikings QB lead the league in INTs?

Gregg makes a really excellent point, I think. It would seem that Favre has indeed forgotten where he came from.

To be fair, this is not all that uncommon. In fact, among the super stars of the world, I would venture to suggest that it's more the norm than the exception. Particularly among the young - and let's face it, Brett's super stardom occurred at a very young age.

I remember reading a short study once on what makes video games to popular among a certain type of personality. The conclusion was that those types of people tend to focus on the very last thing that happened to them and video games presented the opportunity to quickly replay to see if that failed moment can be overcome. Ironically, it's that very drive and obsessiveness which drove Brett to become so great that is now the source of all his problems.

He came SO close in '07, to hitting the big one again, only to see it slip away in overtime in one foolish moment. I guess it's hard to really appreciate how excruciating that could be and how easily one could fall into thinking, oh, if only I can go at it once more, I'll make it this time, or something along those lines. At the time, his better half decided, ok, it's time to go, I took my shot, came close, failed, and it's not the end of the world. But it must have kept playing on his mind. It's entirely possible that it was part of what made him so emotional in that retirement press conference.

I have little doubt that the primary reason he would even consider returning at his age to play for the Vikings is the hope of a super bowl championship. Sure, the perk of getting in a dig against the Packers would be ever present, but it's just a perk in the end, just a little extra. If the decision between a couple of teams where he'd be the perfect fit (and there could only be a couple, I would think) is a bit like Hobson's choice, then obviously he'd opt for the Vikings for that extra flavour. But it's still not the main thing. Or so I suspect. And hope (for his sake).

I concur with your assessment. After all Brett was and may still be among the best available QB's and could full the needs of several teams. Brett likely feels that his injury prevent him from a another run at the playoffs and he fail because of same (among other events). Brett should have been replaced as the starting Jets QB once it was clear that he was injuried and could not help the team (rest his arm for playoffs and determine his future replacement). That was a coaches call, he didn't make it-history. Brett has the right too continue hios career-seee no problem. Fear rules and ai am looking forward to seeing more of Brett gunsling as a pureest NFL fan. And as A Packer Fan-I looking forward to the challange he offers the PAcker. If the PAcker are a playoff team, they heave too beat the best and Brett will help determine if the PAcker's are just that. Go Packer-I have no fear of Brett as a Viking or the QB for any team that he may eventually play for should he unretire-like so many exceptional past and present p;layers-IT A JOB and this America!

That's what I don't get in this whole thing. Brett has to be attractive to another team besides the Vikings right? How come there has not been any mention of other teams being interested?

Is the message that clear to all teams that he will play for Minny or nobody that other teams don't even bother to inquire? When his shoulder question is answered does anyone think other teams will start calling.

I don't think anybody would want the big headache and the circus that would come with him. Also IMO he is a QB that stayed already one season to many.
Also in response to Oletimer, IMO his play for a number of years coming to the end of the season hasn't been good. I would imagine the injury didn't help him with the Jets but I sure don't think it should be an excuse.

This is exhausting.

Favre Still Retired?

I think Favre wants to play for the Vikings and plans too. Him and Childress claiming he is retired as of right now is there way to deny everything if it doesn't work out for him to come back. Say if Favre's arm doesn't heal then he has denability about the whole thing.

I too find the notion of Favre in purple repugnant to the max! I pray he comes to his senses (but I'm not holding my breath) and stays home in MS.

See Francis thread same opinion applies to Coke boys comments as well

Well you can say the same to about Favre if he says anything he was a pill poping drunk so he is no better then the others.

Both addictions which he overcame, which is quite a testament to his strength. The success rate for recovery is not very high, unfortanately, for the rest of the population.

Yes and Favre's was an addiction to pain killers, which was a result of football injuries. While Irvin's was to cocaine and hanging in strip clubs being a player and I don't mean football. Big difference and those are the "facts". As for drinking Favre and Chewy were drinking buddies and if I was Dianna, I'd frown on that as well. Drunk is a very broad term, in my twenties I drank a lot more than I did later in life. You (GBP4ever)like to throw out broad generalizations, Favre certainly was not an alcoholic, maybe abused alcohol. I thought, I was on your ignore list?

not a alcoholic? That's why he was sent to rehab to dry out and his wife told him to quite drinking or she was going to leave him. To me that is being a alcoholic. Also it is said that Irvin has cleaned up his life in the last few years. If you will praise Favre for cleaning up his life you have to give the same credit to Irvin. Both Irvin and Favre where addicts plain and simple to many people give Favre a pass saying it was only pills. It was pills and alcohol a very deadly combo. It was still something he should never have done. IMO if it was not for Holmgren Favre would have drank himself out of the NFL.

Sounds like Irvin Favre in the body of Michael Irving!!

yah...he had nothing to do with it.
The fans threw the ball and caught it?

Saying BF playing for Minn would ruin his legacy is ridiculous. His legacy is year after year of playing for the GBP and doing it as well as anyone ever has.

If he wants to play and GB does not want him he might look petty, vindictive, or even foolish for continuing to play without putting in the work to play at a high level. But saying his legacy is ruined is asinine.

is Reggie White's legacy here ruined when he came back to play in Carolina?

move on people....If I can do it anyone can.
Worry about our Defense and Kampman and the Dline.

Reggie came back becasuse he thought he could make one last run for the SB and yes it kind of did hurt him as he was not the Reggie of old and people said he should have never came back. Also yes it will ruin Favre's legacy because only the Favre backers deny he is coming back for anything less then petty revenge.

Who cares why he is coming back? He is not a Packer anymore, they do not want him. Petty revenge, ego, a bet with his wife.....who cares.

Just deleted 3 posts.

If you have something personal to say to someone take it to PM's and leave those thoughts out of the thread.

Fans are fans, whether they watch in person or on television. I've been a fan for 50 years, but it is rare that I am able to actually attend the game. I suspect that there are a hundred "TV" packer fans for every "at the game" Packer fan. There is only one reason the corporations throw money at the NFL and that is because millions watch the NFL on TV. The corporations hope the money they spend on the NFL will translate to customers and sales for their products. Corporations aren't charities. They depend on profits. If they weren't getting a return on the money they are spending on the NFL, they wouldn't be spending that money. No TV watchers ("Fans"), no corporate money, no big bucks NFL. If it was only the people attending the game who supported the Packers, players would be lucky to be paid thousands, rather than the millions that are now thrown at them.

Count me as being among those who believe that Favre's fame and money comes from the average tv watching football fan. He can choose to appreciate it or not, and he can choose to consider whether he owes anything to the fans or not, but the fact is that without the fans he'd be getting $15 an hour for riding that mower.