Just a thought I had that could spur some interesting (hopefully not heated) responses.

Simple question -

What tarnishes Favre's legacy more, if he comes back and falls flat on his face w/ the Vikes, or if he goes to the Vikes and wins a Super Bowl?

I don't see how he could win the Super Bowl since the Packers will be the ones doing that!!

If he wins the Superbowl, that adds to his legacy. That would also probably imply that he'd found a time machine and kidnapped a decade-younger version of himself.

It isn't playing for other teams that tarnishes his legacy in any event -- it's publicly behaving like a spoiled child that tarnishes his legacy.

The Vikings don't win Super Bowls. It's that simple.

I'll attempt a serious response to the question:

I think the way Brett tarnishes his legacy is if he comes back and falls flat on his face. That's the way all the greats tarnish legacies-- they hang on and play too long. Coming back with a torn biceps tendon so he plays a few games and soreness develops, and then he goes from throwing td's to throwing int's-- then he would look like an angry pathetic old man.

Coming back and winning a superbowl will not tarnish the legacy. It was the Packer's decision to move on with Aaron Rodgers, which I feel was the correct decision. If Brett can play well enough to help a team win a super bowl, then he deserves the chance to play. If the Packers felt they were better off with someone else, then they shouldn't be upset if he goes off to play with another team, even a team in the NFC North.

If Brett wins with that team, it shouldn't be viewed as "sticking it to the Packers", because he won't win it by himself, but as a member of a solid team. I've never understood the credit the QB position is given for team success or failure. I think Aaron Rodgers would give Minnesota as good a chance to win as Brett does, perhaps even better. With Adrian Peterson, they need a QB who protects the ball and produces, as their running game is good enough that they don't need a quarterback to gamble in order to win games.

If Brett plays and is successful, it is nothing more than a man continuing to play a game that he loves and is good at. He no longer wanted to fit the Green Bay plan that didn't guarantee him the starting job, where there is another outstanding QB. Unfortunately, we didn't have just the two best Qb's in the nfc north, we had two of the best in the nfl. That turned out to be too complicated to deal with.

Now its up to Brett to decide, is he just a guy hanging on too long, like many other greats, or is he a top QB that can still win the big one. I hope it's the latter, because it will be painful to watch a packer legend soil himself if its the former.

I think in 10 years people will say about him yeah he was a great QB in his prime no one could match him and he could be considered by many a top 5 all time QB but those last few years of his where just paethic and he just could not face the fact he was done and kept playing for all the wrong reasons and it hurt his legacy.

Choosing to play for the Jets and winning the Super Bowl would not tarnish the legacy. Nor does him falling on his face late last year.

If he went to the Saints or Tampa or Seattle, whether he won or lost would not tarnish the legacy.

Choosing to play for the Vikings... PERIOD. Seeking out the Vikings as the one and only desireable team to play for... PERIOD.

THAT tarnishes his legacy. No matter what comes of it.

so his last year in GB he was pathetic? WOW

Yes didnt you know over 4000 yards, 28 TDs and playoff victories is now considered pathetic?

Brett will not be winning any Superbowls. Brett has, imho, a serious gambling addiction, except he gambles with the football instead of with money. Gamblers play to lose - the pathology is that every time they lose and then wake up the next morning, they have cheated death in a small way. I honestly believe Brett is psychologically incapable of winning a major playoff game or SB, and has been since '97.

As for coming back and making a fool of himself, that will be forgotten in a very few years. He'll be remembered for his superbowl win and his subsequent huge number of interceptions.

He had an excellent last year with The Pack, and was having a decent year with the Jets considering he came in late and waslearning the system/teammates before the arm injury.

No Mark we will be remembered for being a winner and playing thu pain, he will also be remembered to his NFL records such as TD passes, consecutive games started. He will be remembered for helping this franchise get back to where the belong. If all people do is focus on his SB and INT's they are very short sighted

Unfortunately, Brett's legacy will be people laughing at him behind his back for the rest of his life for his immaturity in snubbing his nose at his fans and not knowing when to quit. It's happening already, as radio shows are already having skits and songs lampooning him about his inability to make up his mind and his somewhat transparent efforts to play for a team like the Vikings.

Will he care? Probably not, he's got his millions that we paid him to ride around on his tractor the rest of his life. Too bad, he'll never have enough money to buy back his dignity.

One of your best ever Lare.

I'll remember the player but his behavior/treatment off the field in regards to the Packers and fans is very questionable.

Some just will not believe Brett would do this....but he has.

5 years after his 'final retirement' most of this will be forgotten and/or forgiven

Is his legacy tarnished? Yes but not as much as most people think right now

You could be correct maxman, but people tend to forget accomplishments and remember recent actions.

What do you think of when someone mentions Pete Rose, Mark Mcgwire, Mark Gastineau, Roger Clemens or OJ Simpson? Their accomplishments on the field or off it?

Lare..exactly..What have you done for me latley... it is a Shame, but now maybe that TT and MM and MM made the comment they were concerned for Bretts Legacy is that they really understood...it is just too bad the man paid to take care of him; Bus does not....

First let me say I'm ticked off at Favre like most Packer fans are...

Sorry Lare but those comparisons are not fair

Rose was a gambling low-life
McGwire and Clemens are roid heads
Gastineau a low life
Simpson a murdering piece of garbage

Favre actions aren't close to that

I'll remember everything, The SB, the ints, The Streak, the Oakland Raider Game, throwing a TD after a concussion and being told he can't go back in by the Coaches, last years off season fiasco, this off seasons semi fiasco, the Jets, and now the Vikes....

In the end, my conclusions about the man versus the footplayer will be very different.

Not close by a long shot. He wants to play football. After he unrtired he wanted to come back to the Pack. The Pack didn't want him anymore. Now he might want to play the game he loves for another year if he finds a team that does want him on their roster. Not a big deal, imo. Not exactly evil intentions or actions.

I'm not saying Brett's actions compare to the others. The question I asked is, what do people remember?

Play the GAME HE LOVES, or is it more to stick it to TT..Lets see he was on a possible playoff Team in NY , he requested to get out/ He retired and unretire with the pack the last year... And trust mne I know Brett loved the Game for many years , but right now I would tend to belive it is more on doing what he wants and making sure he shows TT that he can...Fine, but in the same ACTION he takes there will be re-action, from the Fans, Players and such..and you can see his legacy being tarnished now from the announcers , shows and the fans themselves, not just Packer Fans.. all Fans...

http://myespn.go.com/s/conversations/show/story/4142857

That has serious comments from all fans...So Lare 's point is correct on what PEOPLE will remember...

We make a big deal out of the choice of the Vikings, for obvious reasons, but if you look at it from a quarterbacks perspective are there any other teams that are that well equiped for a deep playoff run but have a big hole at the quarterback position?

As I have implied before, if Brady wasn't able to come back this season at New England, I think Brett would want to play there. Minnesota is a good fit for him. To bad its an arch rival as that adds baggage to the issue.

How do people remember Babe Ruth? As a Yankee or a washed up Boston Brave?

How do people remember Michael Jordan? As a Chicago Bull of Washington Wizard?

How do people remember Emmitt Smith? Cowboy or Cardinal?

Max good point but slight difference...Emmitt , Michael and Babe did not come to the front story spectacles so many times iin a few years, not to mention say what you will, but by Brett being a Packer also made him an ICON... Not sure if that could have been said if he played somewhere else... the fans and the org endeared themselves to Brett and so did the Nation...and please ask other Fans to answer honestly if he would have been such an Icon as a Cowboy, Redskin, Giant, and a few others. I have and in there humble opinions...they dont believe he would have been as popular and revealed....JMO...

I got to be honest. I dont think the nation endeared him as much as we Packer fans think they did. The rest of the world got sick of him years ago with his retirement BS. We put up with it because we had to. IMO most people turned their back years ago.

I can't speak to babe ruth. I'm old, but I'm not that old.

I understand your point, but knowledgeable fans remember Jordan as both the Bull, and the Wizard. They remember him as a minor league ballplayer with the Birmingham Barons as well.

Favre will be remembered for the entire body of work, all the records good and bad. He'll be remembered for the on field shenanigans- throwing snowballs against the seahawks in the playoffs, taking the dive for Michael Strahan, jawing at warren sapp. He will be remembered for how this all plays out as well. How Favre the Viking is remembered depends on if he can still play. If he looks like an old man with a bad shoulder, people will say he was bitter and couldn't admit he was over the hill. If he plays like 2007, then it will add to his legacy as a guy who put up good numbers into his 40's and extended his records.

While the loyalty issue matters to packer fans, it probably won't be that big a deal for the national audience who don't really care about the packers that much. To us it tarnishes the legacy, to the national audience it will be just a footnote.

Except Frank Caliendo/John Madden

Vikings fans have been especially hard on the "will he or won't he retire" routine. They always laughed at Favre for his indecision but deep down they really wanted him to retire so the Vikes wouldn't have to face him twice a year. Viking fans I know will eventually embrace Favre if he is their QB (and the team wins) but they are having a hard time with idea right now.

As for tarnishing his legacy, I think the last several years of off-season antics have left their mark. At this point his recent legacy is of a late season fade, as many interceptions as TD's with a truly magical season in the midst that helped him recapture some of the glory of his prime. Unfortunately, his greatness on the field will always be footnoted with the post-season retirement talk. Perhaps a decent comparison is that of Rickey Henderson. The guy is one of the best of all time but whenever I think of Rickey I always remember the old guy that played way too long.

My biggest fault with Favre is not that he wants to play (or really even his motives), but the annual antics. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice . . .

Quite an excellent post, Chunky, not to mention being one that actually answered the specific question. I can't disagree with a word. In fact, for my answer to the question, I'll just second your's.

@ Lare: I agree with LMG, Lare. That post - the one which included the comment about not being able to buy back his dignity - was a superb post. Kudos. And that closing line was so good, I wish I'd thought of it myself.

It just annoys me that he could have been the king of Wisconsin, basically, but threw that all down the toilet. He had what I thought was a great thing going here, but is now basically snubbing everybody in the state (and country, really, since Packers Nation isn't just Wisconsin).

Packer fans of anyone I think are most cognizant of their team's accomplishments and traditions. To have someone turn their back on all of it voluntarily despite all the emotion put into that person is probably the worst thing anybody could do to most Packer fans.

I wonder if Brett even realizes what he is doing to most of said fans...

Wow, I expected more from a Mod.

I really don't think he cares and it started last year when he thought he got snubbed by the Packers.

All the talk about 'oh he just loves football and he should be able too' is well....just not the real reason and loaded with bind love. I think some of those believers are discarding their 'blinders' and seeing the reality of the sad way he chose to end his career.

If I am a player on the Vikings I want a QB that has one agenda....to practice and play to win the SB. What player wouldnt but will anyone believe this is Brett's main goal? Your leader needs to be in it for the love not for spite. I firmly believe the Viking players will be divided as to there feelings on this. A locker room divided.

If he does come back expect a barrage of interviews and likely negative press out of NY players and fans. Add to the circus. Distractions and a circus like atmosphere can have a negative impact on a team so I say if he wants to play good luck to him.

Lastly, if your a 3 time MVP and a SuperBowl winner who just got his release wouldnt there be many many offers for your services if you still had the ability to play at a high level? I have not heard a word about any other interested parties besides the Vikings. Anybody else hearing rumors?

'Mods' are people/fans with opinions also.

And all share the same opinion as well.

For those of us fans who truly do love and care about Brett the actual PERSON, and not just the public image Favre the HOF Green Bay Packer Quarterback, this issue is MORE than just what he is doing to us FANS. It's also about him not realizing what he is doing to HIMSELF!!!!

I mean, we Packer fans will get over this much more quickly than Brett himself will, if he ever will....He may not realize it now, but 15-20 years down the road from now, when he can look back with more perspective, he will realize more and more what he had done to seriously tarnish everything it took 17 years to build...and then he either

1) ...Will be crushed in a good way which brings a contrite heart, and he will openly confess his errors....and no doubt the Packer faithful will forgive him.

or

2) He will be hardhearted and become a bitter, depressed old man, who eventually in nursing home scenility mutters over and over, "Stick it to TT. Stick it to TT"

Thank you, chunky. As a fan it's tough to back personal feelings out of this, but here's my attempt - pretty much the same train of thought as you:

The man wants to lead a team to a championship and go out like Elway. He sees the Vikings as the best opportunity to do it. And on that issue alone, he's probably right (assuming he still "has it", which is a BIG "if") ...

Assuming Brady comes back 100% or close to it, the Vikes become the only team in the NFL that are a starting QB away from a real shot at the brass ring (at least on paper). And Minnesota is a better fit for him than even a Brady-less NE because 1) the cold won't be an issue (will "the dome???" Time will tell), 2) they have a solid running attack therefore, if it clicks for them, there won't be a serious need to throw into double coverage, 3) the learning curve will be a lot shorter than it was with the Jets or would be with the Pats given that he has 16 seasons' familiarity with both the Vikings and the division.

I can question his tactics in getting to this position (and I do, big time), question whether or not it's the smartest thing for him long term (and I do, big time), question whether or not he'll regret it someday (I think he will), but from his point of view, if he wants his shot to go out on top more than anything else, the decision is pretty cut and dry. I think he's missing the longer term implications of this decision (his legacy), or maybe those implications don't matter nearly as much to him as they do to many Packer fans.

Or maybe going out on top means a lot more.

I can't crawl into his head, nor do I even want to try. It's his legacy to cherish or tarnish, not mine. All I as a Packer fan can do is thank him for the years of thrills and inspiration he gave me while wearing green and gold.

Oh yeah, as a fan I can, and will, do one more thing: Shout, cheer and hope for our secondary to pick him off every stinking time he airs it out as Vikings QB

Really? By some reactions around here I'd guess his actions are worse!

Oh, and thanks to Chunky for being one of the few that answered the question

If you say so....but they are still opinions and to maybe wish all comments about Brett that you care not to hear and were swept under the rug looks like will not happen by the reaction of other fans here and in most circles.

Said this many times....I appreciate Brett as 'the player' but what he has done over the last year to divide the fans and put his personal agenda/vendetta ahead of his great career is...well...

I do agree, LMG. I will not like seeing Favre in Purple if that's what happens, and I think that Brett will be making a mistake if he plays for them. I just thought mark's comments were a little over the top considering what others in the Brett Favre sub-forums have got slapped on the wrist for thus far. JMO like always.

I'm afraid that Brett is going to learn that “if you that don't learn the lessons of history you will be doomed to repeat them.” He is about to join a long list of talented athletes, while blessed with many skills, who didn't know when to quit. There is no question that fire of competition is burning in his gut again. But this should not be a surprise to the fans that watched him all these years. He never quit on the field.

Everyone also agrees that he was a gambler.

If you have ever been to Las Vegas you have seen the monuments build to gamblers that did not know when to quit. They did not built billion dollar casinos because gamblers won. They built them because the average gambler loses and doesn't know when to quit. Every hot streak comes to an end. Three MVP'S, a place earned among the greatest football players of all time. It was great streak, he brought a lot of joy to the fans of Green Bay. And was key to winning the first Superbowl since Lombardi. While there are few places in the world more fun that a hot craps table when everyone is winning. There is also nothing like the silence when the streak ends and the shooter throws craps.

It's Bret's call if he wants to throw the dice again.

Folks, don't forget it's the Vikings. It doesn't matter who is at QB, it's a divisional game that we need to win. Victory over a Farve led Vikings would just be a bonus. It would just be another Packer game to the Vikings. The Packers on the other hand would be extra motivated, because you can be sure that if Farve signs with the Vikings, he won't be able to keep his mouth shut and miss the opportunity to take a shot at the Packers. I'm encouraged with this years draft, new defensive coach, and strength coach. A healthy, motivated and improved Packer team will be a challenge to the Vikings.

A 40 year old QB with a questionable arm, gambling tendencies and well known to the defense is not a threat that has me overly worried. His decision making has not improved with age, he'll force a pass somewhere he could have squeezed it in a few years ago, a defensive back that has watched him throw thousands of passes will step in front of it and take it to the end zone. Instead of jumping into the air and pumping his arm in the air and rushing to the end zone to celebrate, he will drop to his knees, lower his head and wonder why he did not quit when he was ahead.

Everyone understands his passion that causes him to as Dylan Thomas said

DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Very nice post in total. The Dylan Thomas poem in particular was brilliant! Thank you.

I don't see the big deal in this. Two sides of this issue with maybe some of us in the middle. I am not in the middle. He started this with the "annual event" for some years. I felt he thought he had that right. I do not think anyone has that right. He has been paid handsomely, he has received special treatment time and again, he has brought undue attention to his team and organization in a bad way. He has forced now 2 teams hand in a way that he feels his "feelings" are hurt. He made a spectacle of himself on national tv (Fox News) and it is not enough. He does not have the skill anymore to be an elite QB w/o maximum effort and preparation that he has stated many times he is unwilling to put himself through. When he actually retired the first time, he stated that he was emotionally spent and did not want to put the time in Monday through Saturday. I will include the time from February to July as well (my words). He thinks that he can play on Sunday with all the QBs; I don't think he can play on Sundays with the best of the QBs. Going to the Queens will further tarnish his image. If he is lucky enough that Minny goes onto the SB, I seriously doubt it will be him. Favre of about 5 years ago, maybe, but Minny has more issues that a good QB will not solve. Their coach and their karma seriously works against them.

He got snubbed as much as he earned the ticket out of town. I love the GBP as much as any one, but, to portray this over and over again as on Favre is ridiculous. TT shares as much blames as Favre for the way it way handled.

"HE" did again... always what he did and nothing the GBP did.

Aside from the over blown drama, I do not get the big deal if he wants play FB. The GBP said they no longer want him. Just because they don't does not mean the guy has to stop playing. If he plays this year and sucks it is on Brett and he will look foolish. If he plays, and plays well then he won't look foolish.

I think this talk about BF owing the GBP anything became moot when he was not a GBP anymore. GBP fans should take TT's advice and 'move on'. If you don't want to cheer for Favre great, if you want to great.

As someone in the let him play camp, I have to disagree that the sentiment is loaded with blind love.

I posted last july that I wasn't sure I wanted him back, when the rumors first broke about his desire to unretire. Iwas hoping he would take some anti-itch medicine and stay retired.

In many ways, the let him play philosophy comes from a more dispassionate, I don't care approach to Brett Favre. I may be wrong, but I don't see him as the piece that puts the Vikings over the top. I don't care for Brett's behavior of late, but from I just view the behavior as separate from whether a player gets to play or not. I think most of the "let him play" comments seem to share that sentiment as well.

I remember when Bart Starr was at the end, and no longer had the arm strength and the d-backs could just camp out on the short routes because he no longer could go long. It was tough to watch. If Brett goes that route, especially given the word games of un-retirement, it will be tough to watch as well. Then it will be another guy who doesn't know when to hang it up.

That being said, Mike and Mike said on their radio show within the last weeks that when they listened to Jordan, they thought he sounded like I guy who still has the itch and feels he can still play in the NBA. If that's true, it shows the mindset that these guys have and how difficult it is to deal with the end of their careers.

I'm not happy about what Favre appears to be doing, but it really is his life, legacy, and decision to make.

I don't remember seeing anything that states Brett owes GB something. He does not. Brett can and will do whatever Brett wants to do. He is now completely free to do as he pleases. While he enjoys this freedom, he is not immune to criticism from his former teams' fans. He has tarnished his image the last several years of his "annual event". He had continually played out the "I don't know how long I will play" & the "maybe I will retire" and planting the ideas with his media "confidants" since 2002ish. It has gotten very old, very quick. In 2006, I believe, youtube had a not very flattering cartoon on Brett, that I have been unable to find. It had a very strong point, that Brett required the GB Packers and fans to be at his beck and call. Many of us stopped doing that and when he finally RETIRED in 2007, I was relieved for the Packers that the annual event and the drama that came with it was over. After the draft, OTA and all mini-camps this turned out to be incorrect and once again the drama started. Brett forced the Packers hand. The "all about Brett" saga would not die. GB did make some mistakes, but really this is mostly on Brett, IMO. He required them to give him the starting job immediately. Only after did he say he would compete for it. This would have split the locker room and the organization was not going to allow it. It was an ugly split and Brett shoulders most of the blame, again IMO due to his childish behavior over the many years prior.

Brett can and will do what he wants. His image is already very stained and adding grape juice will only complete the transformation into another image all together. Good luck Brett riding with the enemy and hope that some day you look in the mirror and see all that you did to yourself and to others due to your immature behavior.

If Favre falls flat on his face, his legacy gets tarnished the most. Maybe not by Packer fans, but by the rest of the NFL fans. I suspect that most Packer fans silently hope he fails so that 1) the Vikings keep losing and 2) our organization is proved right for letting him go.

If Favre wins a Super Bowl with the Vikings and has another Pro Bowl season than the Packer organization looks bad for not bulding a team around Favre and keeping him in Green Bay. And his legacy, like that of Kurt Warner, will be enhanced. Before Brett got hurt in NY, he looked very good and had Pro Bowl caliber numbers and the wins to go with it. The funny thing is, when he got hurt, the rest of the team fell apart and he couldb't keep them a float. Reminds me a lot of the Packers over the course of his career. in 2007 as our running game was a disgrace, it was Favre keeping the offense afloat. Imagine if he played bad or even average and we would be lucky to get half of those wins!

If Ted had a built this team around Favre, instead of for the future, I think Brett would still be playing for the Packers. But, for better or for worse, Ted took the team in a new direction and decided, after Brett retired, that Aaron was the best QB to lead the team.

It is what it is and Favre is now free to play wherever and for whoever wants him.